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Jul 27, 2016 20:57:13 GMT
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fulvia series 1 1200. rolling restoration
fulvia series 1 1300. definitely in bits
golf Mk4 v6 4motion. weekend fun
T4 transporter. daily
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colnerov
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,834
Member is Online
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Jul 27, 2016 22:35:09 GMT
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Hi, Have you thought about what you're going to put in the tapered hole to stop the bolt rocking about?
Colin
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Jul 27, 2016 22:43:15 GMT
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unless they are unobtainable I'd use standard stuff, they'll far outlast an un sealed rose joint.
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Jul 28, 2016 15:14:58 GMT
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Hi, Have you thought about what you're going to put in the tapered hole to stop the bolt rocking about? Colin I did wonder about how to do that. That was mostly why I was asking if anyone had done this as I could see that would be a bit unsafe. |
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fulvia series 1 1200. rolling restoration
fulvia series 1 1300. definitely in bits
golf Mk4 v6 4motion. weekend fun
T4 transporter. daily
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Jul 28, 2016 15:22:06 GMT
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unless they are unobtainable I'd use standard stuff, they'll far outlast an un sealed rose joint. Ive found I can get normal tie rod ends (after hours of searching) and that some Fiat ones FSO and Lada ones are a suitable fit ....I thought the rose joint would be an upgrade? better than the standard ? But as ive never done this so... |
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fulvia series 1 1200. rolling restoration
fulvia series 1 1300. definitely in bits
golf Mk4 v6 4motion. weekend fun
T4 transporter. daily
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jul 28, 2016 17:08:02 GMT
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I had to use Rose joints in place of the standard TRE's, because the steering rack is lowered and bolting the rose joints to the top of the steering arm removed the terrible bump steer!
Haven't found the taper to be an issue, Rose joints aren't meant to be an interference fit, they have a normal HT bolt/nyloc clamping the rose joint to the arm, it's a big bolt, so can be done up tight....I also used good quality washers to spread the clamping force, a "hi angle" spacer to aid movement.
Rubber covers filled with grease were fitted to protect from the elements, no problems so far and 2 MOTs.
However, if you can find normal TRE's to fit, I'd stick with them, one less thing to keep an eye on!
Obviously, you'll check the TRE's during a service, I just tend to check any mods much more frequently.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,696
Club RR Member Number: 39
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tie rod ends upgradeDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Jul 28, 2016 20:28:41 GMT
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I think Caterham also use a 16x1 - That's who I ordered my 16x1 half nut lock nuts from - the ends I used on one of my projects are FSO Polonez and were peanuts off ebay - they are also used for top ball joints on Triumph uprights to give adjustable camber.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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j4m35
Part of things
Posts: 70
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Jul 29, 2016 18:26:58 GMT
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In what way is a rose joint better? It does exactly the same job only it lasts a fraction of the time
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Jul 29, 2016 19:37:13 GMT
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Thanks guys. After alot of trawling through the net I've found some m16 x1 ends really cheap and next day delivery. But found that after I actually took the rod off they are actually m14 so the moral of the story is measure them first and don't rely on what it says on the met. My fault I should have thought its a 50 year old car that most parts suppliers don't list. So rose joints are now possible but I don't think I will use them if they don't last as long as standard ends.
They are m14 and seem to be x 1.5. And are now the cheapest is £30 ish and from italy opposed to £6.99 each. Balls!!
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fulvia series 1 1200. rolling restoration
fulvia series 1 1300. definitely in bits
golf Mk4 v6 4motion. weekend fun
T4 transporter. daily
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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In what way is a rose joint better? It does exactly the same job only it lasts a fraction of the time Because I've got Rose joints fitted, (see my post above), I'm concerned about this statement. Do you have evidence or first hand experience of this statement? It'll be helpful, because I could tailor an inspection regime based on your facts. Thanks |
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Jul 30, 2016 20:31:48 GMT
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Found some good standard rod ends in germany. for less than 20 euros each. they seem to be good quality but we will see if they are any good. thanks for your help guys.
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fulvia series 1 1200. rolling restoration
fulvia series 1 1300. definitely in bits
golf Mk4 v6 4motion. weekend fun
T4 transporter. daily
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j4m35
Part of things
Posts: 70
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Jul 30, 2016 22:55:39 GMT
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In what way is a rose joint better? It does exactly the same job only it lasts a fraction of the time Because I've got Rose joints fitted, (see my post above), I'm concerned about this statement. Do you have evidence or first hand experience of this statement? It'll be helpful, because I could tailor an inspection regime based on your facts. Thanks See lots of these in historic motor racing. They're lighter than conventional track rod ends and it's easy to knock together links and track rods which are no longer available etc. Rose joints have obviously been available to OEMs for decades but apart from some exceptions (the Countach for example) you'll not see rose joints on factory cars- the reason being, proper rod ends have a greater bearing area, they are sealed from the elements by a rubber boot and are grease packed, all factors which contribute to proper track rod ends lasting 100k miles in all conditions and rose joints lasting two or three winters before dirt and damp ingress and lack of lubrication causes that limited beating area to wear and allow play to develop. |
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Thanks for the reply. I do understand that Rose joints require more maintenance then OE track rod ends, but as I said above, to remove the bump steer caused by a lowered steering rack, it was a choice of Rose joints or engineering new steering arms. I'm not an engineer, so new steering arms were beyond me, but I can buy Rose joints that have been designed by one (an engineer)! I also think that a steering rack doesn't place huge stress on the joints, after all, I can turn the road wheels by hand, kneeling on the floor, with full weight of the car on the suspension. And I'm a 10 stone weakling! I do know that lots of race cars use Rose joints at the end of wishbones in place of ball joints, which will increase the stress on them and that racers often replace parts, that in a road car, still have lots of service life, it's the "to finish first, first you must finish" principle. If the Rose joints last 3 winters, or 30K miles, I'm happy with that. That's probably about 20 years of driving in this particular car, because it's only driven on really good days. And without the Rose joints, I wouldn't be driving it at all!  |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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tie rod ends upgradeDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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m14x1.5 is beetle/bus/anything else aircooled. in fact the ones in your first pic look like beetle ones. under a tenner each from gsf.
be wary there is two taper sizes though, yours look like the larger ones.
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Last Edit: Jul 31, 2016 9:22:18 GMT by Dez
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Pedeant alert!!! "Rose" is a company name, just like Hoover. They should be called rod ends :-) Car manufacturers use standard ball joints because they are cheaper than rod ends due to the less exacting build tolerances, not because they last longer. No volume car manufacturer deliberately makes parts to last 100,000 miles (actually they don't last this long, they may still work but will be knackered compared to new ones), where is the repair/replacement profit in that? On a standard road car the standard ball joint is fine, if you are happy with the gradual wear and resulting wooliness of the steering over time. Rod ends will remove any slack and tighten up the steering feel, even over new ball joints. I wouldn't, however, recommend simply bolting one on using a straight bolt in the tapered hole, this is just bad engineering and asking for rapid wear of the taper. Ream out (or, at a pinch, use a new drill bit) the hole to the correct size. Rod ends are even available with a bolt attached.  An advantage of the rod end is that you are able to adjust its mounting height so any bump steer can be reduced or eliminated. |
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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tie rod ends upgradeChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Jul 31, 2016 11:16:14 GMT
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I think the above is slightly biased  . An expose rod end as you put it will wear out far quicker than a normal item due to it being exposed and in most cases will transfer more Noise, Vibration and Harshness. OK, you can put boot ends on but I'd still like to see a rose joint do 100,000 miles and pass an MOT . Remember new cars need to last the warranty period ; it makes zero business sense to have a car that cannot last them, longevity or not. After all, it's why people buy new cars and lose a fortune on them for less hassle. If there is proof of a "rose joint" lasting 100k however I'll stand to be corrected. Next you'll be saying a 4 paddle clutch will last as long as a generic stock clutch, and that they are not used due to being cheaper to make, not because they are near enough unusable in a daily application. |
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Last Edit: Jul 31, 2016 11:18:01 GMT by ChasR
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j4m35
Part of things
Posts: 70
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Jul 31, 2016 12:28:31 GMT
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P.S nalesutol we're running a 1964 Lotus Elan at 26r spec in the HSCC Guards Trophy, they're great track cars aren't they?
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jul 31, 2016 18:40:29 GMT
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Pedeant alert!!! "Rose" is a company name, just like Hoover. They should be called rod ends :-) And Cadbury "Roses" are so called because the Rose Brothers company made the machines that wrapped the little sweets, this company then became Rose Bearings! |
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jul 31, 2016 18:50:11 GMT
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I wouldn't, however, recommend simply bolting one on using a straight bolt in the tapered hole, this is just bad engineering and asking for rapid wear of the taper. Ream out (or, at a pinch, use a new drill bit) the hole to the correct size. Rod ends are even available with a bolt attached. An advantage of the rod end is that you are able to adjust its mounting height so any bump steer can be reduced or eliminated. To remove bump steer is exactly why I fitted them, but reaming (or drilling) out the taper would mean not finding a rod end to fit, rod ends with a through bolt hole the size of a reamed out steering arm taper would have a similar sized shank. I had to use a rod end with a shank that fits my steering rack, the taper was infilled to suit. But because there's a clamping force of 50 lbs ft on the rod end mounting surface against the steering arm, I doubt it'll move much in the taper anyway! |
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any pointers please....? the joint itself is m16x1 which seems hard to find and what do you put in the rose joint a bolt and nylock nut?
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