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Interesting conflab over the weekend, other than fitting a roll cage. what can someone do if they would like a retro / classic but has safety concerns over an older cars crash protection.
My other half has a new golf, & she was saying how she'd luv either a old mini, but wouldnt actually have one because of the lack of crash protection.
In the same way, I'd luv to have a VW camper as a kiddie transporter when we have kids, as opposed to the usual Galaxy / espace curse word. Whilst it would be practical - could you add any protection to a classic like a VW bus, to protect your kids in the event of an accident.
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71 Alfa GT 1300 Junior
89 Alfa 75 3.0 V6 Veloce
89 Alfa 75 3.0 V6 America
2015 C220 estate Daily shunter
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roll cages can result in more injuries than they prevent if badly fitted or if you don't wear a helmet... They can also hinder the emergency services from getting you out of a wrecked car.
Em had a Mini. It was hit by a Transit van. It survived. I remember seeing photos of a Mk2 VW Polo which got in an arguement with a jumbo jet of all things, and the occupants walked (limped?) away OK.
Biggest safety device out there - seat belt.
Also remember that all these modern cars are built with energy absorbing crumple zones. Crashing into one of them in a proper old car is like driving into a pillow.
What you don't want to do in an old car is wrap it round a telegraph pole or hit a tree head on or stuff like that.
People are really really risk averse and safety in cars is one which IMO is a case in point where the risks are well overstated against the costs of a new car. Some older cars are lethal death traps. Mostly late 80s early 90s hathcbacks. I remember seeing dummy tests on them yonks back and the floors tend to fold up and chop your feet off in a crash. Box shape Micra and the Mk2 Metro were the worst.
Larger non-rotten older cars are fine. Mostly.
What ever you have make sure it has a three point seat belt, pref an inertia reel type (for convenience, not safety) and make sure you wear it.
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Last Edit: Jun 11, 2007 9:24:53 GMT by akku
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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The worst thing most people do when trying to improve the safety of an old car is make it too stiff. In a crash you need the car to absorb the impact, which is why they fit crumple zones. I've seen first hand the results of a modified old car having an accident where the driver was killed. I'll explain what happens, its a bit sick but shows the problems.
The car was a 105e anglia. It had been seam welded throughout, 14 point cage tied into the strut tops. A strut brace had been fitted and a frame had been created around the engine bay to hang the fibreglass panels off. A frame had been welded throughout the floor with the seats mounted on it, and the harnesses hung off the cage.
The crash was pretty bad. The guy hit a solid stone wall at 90-odd mph straight down the middle of the bonnet. However he didnt have a mark on his body and looking at him you wouldn't think he was dead. What killed him was that the car stopped dead. The front was pretty crumpled but due to the cage etc it didnt push back much past the strut tops. The engine was bashed through the bulkhead. However this meant all the stopping force had to go somewhere, and it did, it went straight into his body. His skeleton stopped at the same pace as the car did, however his internal organs did not. The PM showed that he died of massive internal haemmoraging, due to his brain and other organs hitting his skeleton.
It definetley makes you think when you see stuff like that. On the same day we recovered a bmw crashed in similar circumstances and all the occupants walked away. The cabin was perfect, and the engine had dropped down and gone under the car as it was designed to.
Matt
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Someone once described it with eggs.
Drop an egg inside a soft squcihy box and it will survive. Drop an egg inside a tin box and you got all humpty dumpty everywhere when you open the box.
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jun 11, 2007 10:15:45 GMT
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Take some proper driver training (not just IAM stuff) or even better, take some motorbike extra training. They know how vunerable you are on a bike, so it's wise to have a similar mindset in an old car.
Even "You can drive safe, but you never know about the person who'll crash into you" is mostly curse word if you're paying attention to hazards and know how to react to them.
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Jun 11, 2007 10:19:33 GMT
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Prevention is better than cure TBH.
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Jun 11, 2007 10:45:50 GMT
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Interesting points.  Still plotting a rollcage for the Sierra, and full harnesses, mainly to stiffen up things and partially as i don't think theres enough metal for it to be strong in crash. think i'll not go mad with one, just a basic one. and pad it out, and think it through... I guess Smart cars are not so good then, as the cockpit is rigid and few bits to squash around it |
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 it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts  |
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Jun 11, 2007 10:57:09 GMT
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Smarts are supposed to be good.
The problem with fittig a cage to a car which has little metal to is as you put it is that the car and the cage become separate structures in a crash.
Cages are great for motorsport. they are great in rollovers and the like. If you get T-boned by a HGV its a whole nother style of crash with forces going in whole other ways. Cages are also good for tying the suspension together. But theres other ways to achieve it if thats what you want.
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jun 11, 2007 11:00:26 GMT
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Also remember that all these modern cars are built with energy absorbing crumple zones. Crashing into one of them in a proper old car is like driving into a pillow. What you don't want to do in an old car is wrap it round a telegraph pole or hit a tree head on or stuff like that. This is true. I hit a parked Saxo when I lost it in my 100E. Mine was superficially damaged really but the Saxo was totalled. Smashed the back in past the back seat, no glass left in it anywhere, bent the axle into a V shape. I had no seatbelts but it didn't hurt that much, but I wouldn't want to hit anything solid. It's mainly side impacts that concern me these days with all the 4x4's out there up at head height when I'm in a narrow classic. Not such a problem in the pop but down there in the Anglia. Time to ditch it for a caged out gassered '41 Willys |
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Rob
Posted a lot
You know, for kids!
Posts: 2,515
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Jun 11, 2007 11:34:18 GMT
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I think side bars make sense - I'll try and find a pic of a Marina that side swiped a tree - scary stuff.
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Jun 11, 2007 11:36:24 GMT
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all this stuff makes sense in theory until you say "how am i going to attach that so that it doesn't just become more metal flying about causing injury if I get hit"
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jun 11, 2007 11:56:11 GMT
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If youre really interested in car safety don't get a classic, modern cars are miles safter than the old ones. That said if youre tooling about in a car that is slow, noisy, has poor brakes and you know wont protect you that well in a crash the way you drive will change and make you safer. Nothing like non servod drum brakes and no seatbelts to focus the mind. Conversely many newer car owners bomb about in their "cacoon" feeling invincible and get into huge accidents.
Seatbelts are the number 1 safety device to have though. I must fit some into my Oxford!
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1987 Maestro 1.6 HL perkins diesel conversion 1986 Audi 100 Avant 1800cc on LPG 1979 Allegro Series 2 special 4 door 1500cc with vynil roof. IN BITS. HERITAGE ISSUES.  |
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markbognor
South East
 
Posts: 9,969
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Jun 11, 2007 12:11:04 GMT
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Seatbelts = My life saved x 3
My driving is better now.
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Jun 11, 2007 12:24:42 GMT
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The Mini and the 2CV are apparently two of the most dangerous cars out there. We just live with it. Makes you drive very defensively, just like a motorcyclist. Everyone has the potential to take you out - makes you keep a very close eye on people making you tend to avoid accidents. Keeps the concentration levels where they should be!
I'd rather have that than have my vision obscured by chunky pillars, head restraints and having an interior full of explosives. The biggest problem with modern cars is that they remove the feeling of danger to the point that people drive around without paying attention.
Incidentally, the H Van doesn't even have seatbelts although I think we will fit them. Nothing but very solid metal to get rammed into if you hit something.
Oh and when I got rear-ended in the 2CV, the seat came off the runners neatly avoiding any whiplash after-effects for me! Did make stopping the car quite tricky though as I could no longer reach the pedals...
Old cars rule. You could buy a new car and have a horrific accident and still die. To a certain extent, when your time is up...
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org |
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Jun 11, 2007 12:24:54 GMT
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last night a DJ saved my life
These days my musical taste is better
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Last Edit: Jun 11, 2007 12:25:06 GMT by akku
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jun 11, 2007 12:41:37 GMT
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Old cars rule. You could buy a new car and have a horrific accident and still die. To a certain extent, when your time is up... True. You could have the safest car in the world and still get wiped out or have a rusted out wibblepoo bucket and tootle about forever in it. Road safety starts with the driver, not the car. Thats the most important thing to remember. |
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1987 Maestro 1.6 HL perkins diesel conversion 1986 Audi 100 Avant 1800cc on LPG 1979 Allegro Series 2 special 4 door 1500cc with vynil roof. IN BITS. HERITAGE ISSUES. |
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Jun 11, 2007 12:55:03 GMT
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The Mini and the 2CV are apparently two of the most dangerous cars out there. ... Not according to the accident data I saw in the late 1980s. This was strictly "not for public consumptins" stuff but I had blagged a place in a transport research centre for my work experiance. 2CV was in group 4 which was safer tham Mk3/Mk4 Escort, Sierra, Fiat Panda, Nissan Micra, and IIRC Metro. The Mini was in group 3 along with a bunch of bigger beefier cars including Granadas and the like. The only small car in group 1 was the Mk1 Astra. In fact there were only 3 cars in group 1 which were Mk1 Astra/Kadett, Merc S Class and Rolls Royce Silver Spur & derivitives. |
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jun 11, 2007 13:14:32 GMT
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Just don't have a crash. Theres that many different types of crash you can have, you can never be sure that you`ve guarded against the one you`re about to be involved in, so just don't have one.
Just to throw this little spaniel in the works about modern car safety - coming up the M1 in a Peugeot 406 HDi, 2000 (W) reg, good solid car, 4 airbags, well looked after car on new Pirellis all round, full history, safe as houses...Well you`d think so, but the wind/rain combo and level of spray on the road that night was the worst I`d ever known, you could barely see 2 car lengths in front and doing more than 50 felt dangerous. Sadly, the driver`s side electric window decided I needed a bit of fresh air, and lowered itself completely, unprompted, and it wouldnt come back up again.
Cheers, 406, thats just great, this constant spray of water I`m getting right in my face, making me rub my eyes every ten seconds and have to keep spitting is improving the safety and visibility of this trip no end!
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Jun 11, 2007 13:26:03 GMT
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Thats mad! ;D Avoiding crashes is one thing... but when you are watching slow motion go very fast you are committed, all you can do is pray! I despirately try avoid crashes on my mountanbike, kinda makes me more dangerous! only a matter of time till it gets more severe than sliding on my ass! (praying) |
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts |
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Jun 11, 2007 14:56:58 GMT
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Yeah, its easier said than done, I`ve had a couple of smashes, its just that every time I try and work out what it was that stopped it being any worse I can only ever come up with "extreme good fortune" and conclude that the best thing all round would have been if the 2/3 or however many vehicles hadn`t crossed paths in the first place.
Anyone who rides a bicycle of any sort in and amongst the traffic can consider my hat well and truly doffed and an elaborate salute to go with it, people just drive through you as if you`re not there and I only ride along canals or the surprisingly good spen valley greenway these days.
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Still plotting a rollcage for the Sierra, and full harnesses, mainly to stiffen up things and partially as i don't think theres enough metal for it to be strong in crash. think i'll not go mad with one, just a basic one. and pad it out, and think it through...
