pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 10, 2014 19:39:16 GMT
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Cars running ok since ecu install ......now I want my boost back! Cars a micra k10 (see below link). 1.3, redline developments ecu, tdo4 turbo, m24 supercharger, max boost for now is 10psi........that's what I was running with cbr600 carbs all last year (stock internals, 2 head gaskets.....don't laugh, it's worked for me and others too) Here's where I'm at so far.....I litterally haven't a clue lol Il take any info, good and bad.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,167
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May 11, 2014 11:08:09 GMT
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It's basically a Megasquirt in a fancy box, so have a look here for more advice about tuning. MegasquirtI have no experience in tuning boosted cars, but I believe using the MAP is the way to go, along with a knock sensor. Or if you haven't got a knock sensor, perhaps a ignition map can be drawn using data from before the engine was EFI'd? Or use this Knock. Good luck, when I did my Triumph, I used the settings from the clockwork ignition as a start point, then went from there.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,872
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May 11, 2014 13:49:06 GMT
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Start with the basics… Horozontally that table is scaled by RPM, vertically it's scaled by MAP (manifold air pressure). MAP is measured in kPa. 100 kPA ~ 1 bar. kPA is an absolute measurement; 0 kPA is a vacuum, 100 kPa is approximately equal to normal air pressure at sea level and your map is scaled to 200 kPA which is twice normal air pressure ( or 1 bar boost).
So n/a wide open throttle would run along the 100 kPa line, while cruising at part throttle you'll be in the vacuum portion of the map, down near 50 kPa probably, and then anything above 100 kPa is boost.
The best place to start is, as andyborris says, to copy across the advance from your standard engine to the n/a portion of this table. You can then do a basic extrapolation into the boost section. I've read/used two different methods for that. 1 is to reduce the advance 1 degree for every 1psi of boost (about 7 kPa), the other is to to halve the advance for every 1bar of boost and smooth the cells in between.
That gets you a base map to start with. After that you either need dyno time (preferable!) or to do some seat of the pants tuning. Most of the time you can run a bit more advance than a distributer would either side of the peak torque section of the rev range and often you'll be able to put a bit more advance back in the boosted area, as the extrapolations I mentioned at the start of this post as only safe guides to start off with.
Often on boosted cars the max power is found just before knock, so if you build some detcans (google for DIY cheap versions) or install a knock sensor you should be able to keep advancing little by little till you get the beginnings of knock, then back the advance down a couple of degrees and have a pretty good ignition table in the boosted areas. Two things to note of caution though: 1. this method only works while in boost, in the n/a portion of the map if you advance as far as knock you can often be well past max power, it's much harder to tune the n/a portion of the map on the road. 2. Any knock event is bad for your engine, and a big knock event could be game over, holed pistons etc. So it's better to air on the side of caution, and be alert while mapping.
Good luck!
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Last Edit: May 11, 2014 13:50:40 GMT by goldnrust
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 12, 2014 14:47:35 GMT
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Wow! Thanks very helpful
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sweep
Part of things
Posts: 411
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May 12, 2014 17:59:23 GMT
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Incredibly helpful, I think I'll jot all that down somewhere for future reference!
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 12, 2014 18:44:25 GMT
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I can't remember wether this is still compounded as in the turbo blows into the charger or not . I would keep peak ignition at 10 degrees and leave it until you have a decent fuel table then start tweaking in 1/4 degree steps .
If you are compounding pressure with the charger coming on and off you would be better off adding a mass air meter as a map sensor has no idea wether 10psi is at 100 or 1000 cfm .
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,872
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May 12, 2014 21:08:59 GMT
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Pretty much all boosted cars run speed density (MAP vs RPM) based maps. Boost pressure only becomes positive once the charger/turbo are outflowing the capabilities of the head, so once in boost the increase in pressure is directly proportional to the increase in flow rate. So 10psi will be a fixed CFM for a given engine
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May 13, 2014 11:05:43 GMT
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And if you haven't got one (which I'm sure you will have) fit a wideband AFR , makes it a lot easier to stay safe
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May 13, 2014 11:20:19 GMT
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Sorry to interject but why can't these clever little ECU's tune themselves up if you have an AFR? It would make life so much easier!
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May 13, 2014 11:49:56 GMT
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Two things to have are wide-band lambda sensor and a knock sensor. With those two devices hooked up you can create a very good map. As tuning progresses and you're looking to go further and faster you can add temperature and pressure sensors into the mix. But to do a basic map you want a knock sensor and a lambda sensor.
You can use a Saab APC unit from a 900 or early 9000 as a stand-alone knock sensing kit. Can hook it up with a few wires. If you decide to get one of these it is important to keep the wiring loom in tact and then strip out the wires which aren't required. It requires connecting of about 5 wires to run and then you've got yourself an LED on your dashboard to tell you if it is knocking.
Wide band lambda can show you your air/fuel ratio. 14.7 is a perfect mixture but you can run lean and you can run rich depending on your requirements. For example, when I did mine I made it so I could cruise on the motorway at 16:1 AFR, saving fuel. Some people like to go really dirty with their fuel like 10 or 11 to 1 but really for a turbo engine on full throttle you want about 12:1 - you can add more fuel to cool the engine if you want although it's debatable whether or not that really works, with extra sensors you could measure it. Tuning your fuel is far less precise than tuning your ignition. A well tuned ignition map will give sparkling performance and the engine will feel like it has lots of 'zing' - can't think of a better way to describe it really.
When you're ready to go you get someone else to drive up a motorway and you sit in the passenger seat and tune the load points. Start off by getting a few good load points on your map and then smooth out the gaps between offline after the drive. Then test again.
When tuning your ignition you want to advance the ignition as much as possible before it knocks. When it knocks you pull it back a bit. Fuel I would always tune lean except for full throttle and load points where you are accelerating part-throttle.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,872
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May 13, 2014 14:51:39 GMT
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Sorry to interject but why can't these clever little ECU's tune themselves up if you have an AFR? It would make life so much easier! Any of the Megasquirt based ECUs can do self tuning of fuel tables if you use the Tunerstudio software. It works very well You still have to manually tune the ignition advance table.
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 13, 2014 16:55:21 GMT
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Pretty much all boosted cars run speed density (MAP vs RPM) based maps. Boost pressure only becomes positive once the charger/turbo are outflowing the capabilities of the head, so once in boost the increase in pressure is directly proportional to the increase in flow rate. So 10psi will be a fixed CFM for a given engine perfectly true until you compound the pressures where the cfm doesnt increase but pressure does . what i found with my compound set up was regardless of boost pressures at low rpm there was no point adding a lot of fuel as the mass of air just wasnt there . i could pull in fifth gear from 1800rpm and have a bar of boost very quickly . you can use one of the outputs on the ecu to switch the charger on and off based on load and come off once a boost level is met . I'm using the same system (m tech v4) on my twin turbo v8 with water meth spray controlled based on throttle ,boost and inlet air temp . it might be simpler to map turbo only first so you can get a fuel map based on the turbo which will be supplying the mass of air then add the charger using the ecu to with rpm limits and use the autotune to fill the gaps in as the charger will be used most at lower engine speeds where its less likely to cause any issues .you can set limits for where the wideband can make changes so once all the full load sites are dialled in you can lock them and only let it look at a certain part of the fuel map.
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 13, 2014 18:28:31 GMT
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Cheers for info people Froggy, my supercharger is on a clutch......at the moment it's disengaged at 3.5k via shift light on rev counter, opens a bypass valve and let's turbo take over But now I have the ecu, will be swapping it to one of the outports on that
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 13, 2014 18:31:46 GMT
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I've got an lc1 wideband linked in too
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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May 13, 2014 21:24:24 GMT
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if you map it with turbo only first you should be able to find the right spot to lose the charger without dropping a lot of boost . i doubt youll ever bother with carbs again after the learning curve on efi . you should have the latest firmware if you register the tuner studoi software for a few dollars so you get all the latest stuff like the auto warm up mapping so you don't have to take your laptop every time you start it to get the enrichment tables sorted
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 13, 2014 21:41:50 GMT
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Is that why it's a bit rough until it's warmed up?
Also, think I've gotta move my TB to before the charger, the belt squeals/slips on partial throttle
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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if you can operate the bypass to open as you lift the throttle you should be able to leave the throttle where it is but if you have to put the throttle before the charger it needs to be as close to the inlet manifold as possible as whatever volume you have ie intercooler and pipework etc then becomes plenum volume and beyond 3 times engine capacity you lose a lot of throttle response and makes idle control very difficult .
all the squealing is the rotors being forced apart in the blower case as the air has nowhere to go but backwards .
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 14, 2014 16:20:58 GMT
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That'll be difficult
2 throttle bodies then?
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,658
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May 14, 2014 18:19:26 GMT
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if you can operate the bypass to open as you lift the throttle you should be able to leave the throttle where it is but if you have to put the throttle before the charger it needs to be as close to the inlet manifold as possible as whatever volume you have ie intercooler and pipework etc then becomes plenum volume and beyond 3 times engine capacity you lose a lot of throttle response and makes idle control very difficult . all the squealing is the rotors being forced apart in the blower case as the air has nowhere to go but backwards . To give you an idea off amount of pipe and space, here's some pics Idle/vacuum operated bypass next to throttle body
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sweep
Part of things
Posts: 411
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May 14, 2014 18:30:56 GMT
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Looks complex as hell, love it! Hope it works as intended.
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