eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Aug 10, 2023 14:53:32 GMT
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Does sound like the shoes. Were the shoes "centred" after the drum was put back on - basically as I understand it by stamping on the brake pedal after getting the wheel turning by hand? The brakes shouldn't be dragging. Can the adjusters be assembled incorrectly? Is the handbrake too tight? Well for now the noise seems cured… the remark about the handbrake made me check that. It turned out to be out of spec. But it also turned out there was no room for getting it in spec either. It seems the cable is a little short. Although specified replacement… So I adjusted it back as far as I could giving the lever a little more throw and after some tests it has been quiet since. I’ll have to monitor it for a bit. In the process I also fixed my door not always closing well. I suddenly noticed the lever that hooks on the catch not coming up fully. It was a little sluggish. Some penetrating oil soon fixed that. The simplest of things really, but oh so satisfying… you wouldn’t believe… I also noticed a bit of play in one rear wheel that I could eliminate by tightening the hub but. It’s one of those things that have to be super tight, but with better tools now there was room for just a very slight nip up. But it was just enough… So if she remains quiet, I think she’s good to go for a while longer.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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The noise is almost timed with the spokes of the wheel faced down, but not quite. You say its from the rear, and nothing obvious on the rear brakes. Is it the propshaft catching on something near the differential extension housing? Or even possibly the drive flange behind the rear wheel bearing catching something? I’ve not been able to find anything in the region that could cause this. And if it were something catching, you’d expect it to also catch when cold, or when on stands. Only other thing I can think of are the cv’s but again I’d expect them to be noisy all the time not just when warm/hot.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Does sound like the shoes. Were the shoes "centred" after the drum was put back on - basically as I understand it by stamping on the brake pedal after getting the wheel turning by hand? The brakes shouldn't be dragging. Can the adjusters be assembled incorrectly? Is the handbrake too tight? The brakes were applied after putting on the drums and before locking them on by putting on the wheels. I deliberately dialed back the adjusters for this test. But the system has an auto adjustment when applying the emergency brake/hand brake. The hand brake I could investigate but it releases the shoes. The pull is pretty short though…so I’ll put it on the list. I do sort of feel on both sides that there’s one spot where the wheel seems to drag just a little more. Asif the drums were just a tiny bit out of round. But the side where this is worst does not make the noise… But I’ve not had this issue for months and now it’s suddenly back.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Well, remember that noise I mentioned?
I tried to investigate. First off it is mostly there when the car has been driven…so when the car is hot.
It’s also definitely from the rear.
Here’s how it sounds:
I first thought it might be the cv joint circlip coming loose. I’ve had that once before but alas it wasn’t that. Which in and of itself is obviously a good thing.
A couple of days later I tried again. Warmed up the car with a great 25km drive and then had the noise again. This time I thought it sounds like something catching and releasing. I can only think of one item in the rear that can do that: the brake shoes. So I took off the wheel and opens the drum. On the Granada they are self adjusting but I did find them somewhat tight and the drum was pretty hot. So I adjusted them back a bit. Wheel roles a bit smoother on both sides afterwards and the brakes still worked well. No pull etc. No clonking or ploinking afterwards while manually turning the wheel.
So another drive. Car felt great, somewhat smoother although that may be in my mind. Yet, the noise came back as the short video I showed was made after that.
Now I’m stuck. Maybe it still is the brake shoes but I wouldn’t know why then as all looked fine.or what to do to fix them.
Only thing I can think of is warming tha car so the noise is there, quickly removing the wheel and brake shoes, putting back the drum and wheel and see if the noise is gone. But what assures me that I can do this fast enough so if the noise is gione it isn’t just because of cool down? Also with no shoes you also have no brakes as pressing the pedal will just push out the brake cylinder pistons. And I don’t expect a tie wrap to hold this pressure….
So, I guess……
HELP
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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I continue to be impressed!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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This continues to be a great build!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Beautiful work my friend! Just beautiful!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Well, I used the car again... I'm not having much luck with the weather since my vacation started so it's not been all that productive yet. There was an event for oldtimers not too far away, yet far enough to be a bit of a test for the Granada. It was a late afternoon, evening car meet at what seemed to be a nice location near the water. As I love water and the opportunity to get my car close to it, I thought I'd go. All day it was like, shall I go or shall I not as the weather was so bad all day. But around the time the meeting started the air cleared and the sun even came out a bit. So I made the call to go. I was climbing the walls with boredom anyway. So I drove about 50km mostly motorway to the meet. The car behaved fine, but I wasn't too relaxed behind the wheel yet. Engine and fuel wise it seemed to do precisely what it should. It didn't hesitate, ran nice and stable at 100-110 km/h on the motorway. I did feel it felt a little bit light on the steering with the car wanting to drift right when I let go of the wheel. That may be something to look into again. It's been aligned not too long ago. It could also be that the tires feel different in the rain on the wet motorway... As on the way back, I was caught in a massive downpour. The car got a wahs for sure lol. All dust now gone. The rain-x on the windshield worked well and I hardly had any benefit from the window wipers. The meeting itself was smaller than expected, but probably because of the weather. I was also surprised at the lack of conversation. Most people just walked by the cars talking among themselves but not so much interacting with the owners... I got some red capet pics that I still need to receive, but the idea was nice. I had a few conversations, waked around a bit among quite a range of oldtimers. I still have trouble menatlly seeing a BMW 5 series or a volvo 850 estate that technically are of age but have nothing really classic about them yet. Nice cars in and of themselves, but to me a bit out of place. But then again, it does make for variety and the ones there were definitely well presented. I had a good time for a few hours and then started back home. I bought some cheap gas as technically it was in Belgium, and had a pretty uneventful trip home apart from the downpour. I even turned on the radio showing I was a bit more comfortable again. But when I turned it down as I got near home I heard a weird noise from the back. So again something to look into. I think it is either a cv joint going bad or more likely the circlip on the end of the drive shaft coming off and making contact inside (as I've had that happen before). Shouldn't be too difficult to investigate and fix. Although I really hope I don't have to find new cv's as my car has the more rare bigger ones. As well as the cost it would mean downtime again and I'd planned to enjoy the car a bit the coming weeks... Anyway some obligatory shots!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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We all have our limits!
It's just when it's family we have a tendency to always want to try to help get things done as cheaply as possible for them. Especially if it's in the realm of things we can (usually) do ourselves, but they can't. Sometimes it just can't be helped and it seems this is such an occasion. Had a similar thing with my parents the past two weeks only not car related.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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You've done an amazing job on it and it's a lovely thing because of it! Good luck on the sale.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 22, 2023 12:58:34 GMT
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Hi Alex Well done re the filter - love a quick fix ! HAve you checked the vent valve (sometimes called a 'roll-over valve' ) on the tank? I don't think you need to drill the cap, you'll definitely smell fuel if you do . There’s no valve present as far as I’m aware. It had a high port on the tank that connects to a high port on the filler neck to vent while tanking. Hence the need for a vented cap…
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 22, 2023 12:56:01 GMT
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One more question: The swirl pot, is it actually a swirl pot where the fuel flows "in the radius of the tank" to make the air in the fuel go away, or is it a catch tank to make sure you don't loose fuel pressure during hard cornering when/ if the fuel pickup tube gets uncovered? /David It’s sold as both catch tank and swirl pot but it’s just a small rectangular aluminium box with 6 ports.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 21, 2023 10:58:20 GMT
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Well, quick and dirty:
With the filter removed and the gas cap off I now had a fat liter of flow in one minute.
With the gas cap on, it was exactly one liter in one minute.
I’m still not sure if my fuel cap is vented or not but I’ll take it for a drive and see if it hisses after a bit of driving.
I think though, that for now the total improvement from 400ml to a liter is good enough to try and see how the car behaves…
If I do still get in trouble on a hot day, I’ll update the pump.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 20, 2023 13:26:41 GMT
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After a coffee and biscuit fueled search ! - I notice you have treated the tank for leaks, is the product E5/E10 'safe'? and secondly I notice that your tank pickup pipe has a (simple) filter on it - I suggest you take this out and check it's clear ... The pump (long shot!) - does it have any filters built in ? Yes, the tank is coated with an Ethanol proof product. The coating is stil looking awesome. Last time I had the sender out the filter was clear as new (only slight discoloration from fuel). This because the tank itself is simply very clean inside. Also, when I changed the filter recently, well, the fuel came pooring out quite happily. That was a very steady and fast flow! This pump has no filters, hence the carb/low pressure filter between tank and it. Thanks for playing!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 20, 2023 11:02:27 GMT
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Hi Alex, You're almost there. If at all possible, try to re-run your low pressure flow test with the small filter removed. Those aren't really suited for high flow applications as they have a relatively small filter area. So replace with a piece of (8mm?) pipe and re-run the test to see if your problem is indeed the lines or the filter. For your 120l/h and a flow velocity of 2 m/s (rough guideline), you'd need a 4.6mm ID line. Your 5.5 ID gives a flow speed of around 1.4 m/s so "should be OK". So try without the filter first and see if that helps. If not, look into another pump indeed, or upgrading the lines. But seeing how sensitive the flow was to the switch from a dirty to a clean filter I'd hazard a guess that it (still) is a relatively large flow restriction. Yes, that test I will do this weekend as it is pretty straight forward! "But seeing how sensitive the flow was to the switch from a dirty to a clean filter I'd hazard a guess that it (still) is a relatively large flow restriction." This is why I'm now more thinking about replacing the fuel pump. Only question is with what? The 120l/h one I have is considered pretty high volume. I haven't yet investigated seriously but a quick glance also shows many versions from 60-105l/m. Your math is very welcome, this shows that it is probably more worthwhile to do something about the pump than about the lines.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Hi Alex How do you draw fuel from the tank ? i.e is there a pump immersed in the tank or is your low pressure - high volume pump mounted external to the tank? I thought all Ford scorpio tanks had an immersed pump with filter and are high pressure ... Is the fuel pressure regulator , on the fuel rail, good ? As I'm using the Granada tank, the pump is external to the tank. This was the same on the MkI scorpio's. I cut the whole mounting plate and pump filter combo from one. The pressure regulator on the fuel rail seems fine, that is, when there is fuel to flow the engine is getting it even on what acceleration etc. And the engine runs fine, just not when the fuel got so hot. BTW: I was able to determine (form the supplier) my high volume pump should be able to flow 120l/h so with less than a liter a minute it is not flowing as it should for sure.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Hello, I haven't really followed everything that you have tested so far, but I don't really understand what sort of fuelpump you have? Does the fuel pressure drop on high load? Or have I got everything mixed up? I understand the problem too be that you don't get enough fuel? I have a hard time to believe that the size of your fuel lines is an issue. Standard cars with more power than what your car is making doesn't have big fuel lines. It sounds like it is the pump that's the fault. If you don't get more than ~60 liters/min on the return, I would think that that's your problem. Something positive: I think that you have built a very nice car! I also know the feeling that you have when battling this kinds of problems, hang in there, you have come so far already! Best regards, David Hi David, Thanks for your compliments and for joining in! A quick recap: I have a dual fuel pump setup. I use a low pressure (supposedly) high volume pump at the fuel tank end that supplies a swirl pot at the front of the car. This is setup as a feed and return so when the swirlpot is full, excess goes back to the rear fuel tank. From the swirl pot I have a high pressure efi pump feeding the engine and returning to the swirl pot. So basically two circles that share the swirl pot. The high pressure circuit is very capable of feeding the engine and has 8mm lines as the thinnest cmponents. The low pressure circuit has 6mm lines that in reality measure an ID of 5,5 mm at best. But during one of the few very hot weekends we had, I had fuel delivery issues. Testing revealed a very hot fuel pump and swirl pot. The engine bay is pretty hot environment with a cosworth BOB engine anyway, but a lack of flow between the swirlpot and rear tank was found (only 450ml a minute!), which meant the fuel heated up too much as the same fuel was constantly recycled. Flow tests showed that with a fresh clear fuel filter for low pressure applications, the flow had doubled again to 850ml. Ever since the fuel pump temp has been a lot more normal, warm but not hot like before (you couldn't keep your hand on it then). So I may not even have a problem anymore as I had never had any problems with this in the 7 years to date that I'm running this combo. So it's not that the fuel pump experiences a pressure drop, it just does not seem to generate the expected flow (this particular model should flow 120L/H the supplier verified for me). Still, ever since I've been paranoid about getting stranded on the motorway again, as I had some less than ideal places where I had to stop. Hence the activities and discussions on what all could be the cause. I figured it was due to line size, just not able to get the right volume flowing. In a final effort I removed the restrictive connectors, which turned out not to be very restrictive as the fuel flow remained almost the same. I can test a couple of things still: removing the filter altogether for one, which is relatively easy to achieve. Another fuel pump as a second thing. At first I felt that if the elimination of the fuel filter would not improve the flow, I should up the line sizes, but I have to say that I'm leaning more and more towards buying a better/new pump. If a new pump still does not generate the wanted flow I can always up the line size afterwards. I also like the suggestion someone made before of using a second efi pump to feed the swirlpot, that will definitely mean a return flow will start running, as it is a lot more quiet than the current type. But the drawback for me is that the inlet of that pump takes a huge line 12mm at least if memory serves me and the tank output is only 8mm. The output side can take 6 as well as 8mm depending on the banjo used. So maybe a good question to ask now is what would you guys do: Buy a better/new high volume low pressure pump and see if it helps or adapt somehow and use an efi high pressure pump (which I have lying around)?
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 19, 2023 12:49:26 GMT
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That all looks extremely factory crisp and clean!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,492
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Jul 19, 2023 12:19:20 GMT
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A no expense spared restoration in every way! Continues to be a great read!
I might have missed it but, what is the deal with the newly made supports. I thought you were taking out a huge panel (axle carrier?) to replace with the same panel only new?
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