|
|
|
Of course if we have Hydrogen powered cars we can have the best of all worlds. I don't claim to know all of the in-depth knowledge behind them, but I'd rather drive a hydrogen car than a fully electric one. The Giugiaro Vadho hydrogen concept car - powered by the same V-12 engine as the BMW Hydrogen 7 and uses BMW’s 7-speed SMG transmission. Honda FCX Clarity, on sale in southern California now. An electric car, a fuel cell type, powered by an electric motor running on electricity generated by a hydrogen-powered fuel cell stack. Just add infrastructure. please. Jay Leno's comments at the end of the vid are very telling:
|
|
Last Edit: Jan 7, 2011 17:50:05 GMT by e21meister
|
|
|
Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
|
|
|
How viable electric cars are depends on what sort of motoring you do, yeah if you're always doing hundreds of miles they wont make much sense, but seeing as over 90% of car journeys are less than 100 miles, most of the time its doesnt make much odds..... and most of us have multiple cars anyway! A lot of fast chargers can 80% charge cars it less than 30mins as well. So just factor in a lunch stop on your journey.... problem solved. Yes we need better infrastructure I whole heartedly agree. Emissions from the power stations...... still more efficient than petrol engines and thats assuming your running on the UK's dirtiest power stations, also electric cars "emissions" (from the power stations) will only get cleaner as the grid gets cleaner (and its only going to get cleaner), whereas petrol cars only get dirtier with age as parts get worn out / worn sensors etc. Batteries needing replacing? I know Lead acid are 95%(?? around there) recyclable and other battery technologies arent far off IIRC, only Ni-cad are nasty and no-ones going to be stupid enough to use them anyways.... rubbish batteries haha! Having a car with 300lb/ft on tap that I can fill the tank on for 50p is mighty appealing to me thanks. Ill still have my petrol motor for weekend fun of course
|
|
|
|
Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
|
|
|
As for hydrogen.... aside from the energy used to make the stuff, it would be nice if the fuel tank didnt empty itself over time, esp as no doubt they will charge as much fuel duty on hydrogen as they do petrol. All I can say is if I find a cheap enough dead forklift Ill be converting some small and retro car to town / shopping duties sharpish Edit: forgot to say, if people are concerned with the power stations for electrics then you have to be fair and say what about the amount of energy it takes to go well to wheel, ie exploration, drilling, pumping, storage, shipping, refinement, distribution to fuel stations of petrol
|
|
Last Edit: Jan 7, 2011 18:19:53 GMT by Colonelk
|
|
Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
|
|
|
Interesting to know what peoples opinions are on the Ampera or Aptera or whatever vauxhall are going to call the Volt in the UK.... ie a Series Hybrid
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is the Leaf on sale yet? Surely it can't be a zero emissions car because the power still has to come from somewhere; even if the emissions emitted are somewhat reduced; they're still emitted? EDIT: Yes it is on sale at £24,000 and that is with the £5,000 Government cash incentive. But I imagine it is economies of scale and as they become more popular they'll also become cheaper.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
no doubt they will charge as much fuel duty on hydrogen as they do petrol. They'll just jack up leccy charges when there's enough cars plugging into the National Grid. Also, has anyone not thought of the fact that electricity production and therefore the emissions caused, (including no doubt having to build more power stations) will go through the roof as more and more Ford Scalextric are built? Coal won't last forever and unless they're gonna build Nuclear power stations nothing has been solved. Give me Hydrogen as a solution any day.
|
|
|
|
duncanmartin
Club Retro Rides Member
Out of retro ownership
Posts: 1,320
Club RR Member Number: 70
|
|
|
Coal won't last forever and unless they're gonna build Nuclear power stations nothing has been solved. Give me Hydrogen as a solution any day. To make hydrogen, you use electricity. So you'll have the same coal/nuke issues... The whole 'soul' issue also applies to fuel cell cars - they are electrics with the cell and H2 replacing the batteries. If it were cheap enough I would get a MIEV as a daily commuter and keep my retro stuff for fun/longer distance journeys. And, FWIW more than 50 percent of my electricity comes from renewable sources.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can't be bothered to read all the posts in the thread so my apologies if this has already been said but in a recent radio debate I was listening to the electric car did rather well. Interestingly there was talk of using electric cars as storage for low cost overnight electricity - if every home had an electricity storage device parked outside (a car) then the electricity could be produced less wastefully (millions putting the kettle on in the FA Cup ad break theory applies here) then the grid could draw power from cars at high usage times rather than having to estimate potential usage spikes. Mass electricity storage FTW.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I love electric cars... there I said it. I LOVE THEM. Torque torque and more torque. In fact I was tempted to start a forum dedicated to them and (preferably) modifying older cars to be electric and to accelerate very fast indeed. Although it seems I've been beaten to the punch Watching electric cars race is like going to a night club with no music, totally souless.
|
|
|
|
stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,876
Club RR Member Number: 174
|
|
|
Watching electric cars race is like going to a night club with no music, totally souless. I know people who are totally deaf that still enjoy watching motor racing. A soul is what you make it. Matt
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
electric cars would do us fine, couple of school runs a day and the occasional jaunt up the town or round a mates house, could have a flash car in the garage for mucking about with.
Proper off road electric 4x4 could be pretty effective, one hub mounted motor in each wheel would make for great grip and lots of freedom as far as suspension movement goes.
|
|
Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
|
|
|
|
|
In the future, I am going to open a Gym and have all the exercise bikes hooked up to my Tesla, that way I get Gym fees to help pay for the batteries, and free electricity to run the thing ;D Can I nominate Pandaselecta for entrepreneur of the year?
|
|
1953 Minor (Long term project) PT Cruiser
|
|
Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
|
|
|
no doubt they will charge as much fuel duty on hydrogen as they do petrol. They'll just jack up leccy charges when there's enough cars plugging into the National Grid. Also, has anyone not thought of the fact that electricity production and therefore the emissions caused, (including no doubt having to build more power stations) will go through the roof as more and more Ford Scalextric are built? Coal won't last forever and unless they're gonna build Nuclear power stations nothing has been solved. Give me Hydrogen as a solution any day. As pointed out you're now using the electricity that was going to the car to make your hydrogen to power the car, but because of the losses at each stage you now have a less efficient process than just putting electric straight to the cars. Ive heard what Rmad has been talking about as well with using them as a giant grid leveller. don't know about the science on that one but the ideas great. And if they put up the cost of leccy enough to level it with say LPG costings on cost per mile you wouldnt be able to run a house for what it would cost. And if they did they it would then make financial sense to install some solar panels on your roof because the payback would be so much quicker. (if electricity cost that much) Thing is, the more prolific electric cars become (especially in people who 'don't care' how their car gets from A to B) the longer fuel will last, the longer it will remain more plentiful, the longer we can run our retros at a reasonable cost. Agreed the goverment is going to have to think up a new money spinner to counter-balance lost earning on fuel duty. Plus if you think about it this way, say we went to a nuclear / wind / tidal / solar setup for all UK energy..... no need to rely on russian gas prices, OPEC oil prices etc for the UK economy and what not. I'm tired so probably not making any sense. Ill come back to this later
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can't be bothered to read all the posts in the thread so my apologies if this has already been said but in a recent radio debate I was listening to the electric car did rather well. Interestingly there was talk of using electric cars as storage for low cost overnight electricity - if every home had an electricity storage device parked outside (a car) then the electricity could be produced less wastefully (millions putting the kettle on in the FA Cup ad break theory applies here) then The Grid could draw power from cars at high usage times rather than having to estimate potential usage spikes. Mass electricity storage FTW. I can deflate that argument in one sentence: Most people won't be arsed. You really think most people are gonna go to the faff of popping back out in the rain/snow/earthquakes (if you're up north) to replug their cars in to have the grid nick back what they've already paid for? Scalextrics can hardly move themselves that far, last thing you'd want when you're getting in the car for work is to find that The Grid has left you with an empty 'tank', so to speak. Watching electric cars race is like going to a night club with no music, totally soulless. I know people who are totally deaf that still enjoy watching motor racing. A soul is what you make it. Yeah, but there's a lot of us who annoyingly have hearing. Mind you, the F1 will probably be on mute this year with that fool DC commentating, but I digress. I find it amusing we're all so ready to drop our draws and give up pistons (rotary or otherwise) and valves, yet we throw our torque wrenches out of the pram when there's potentially a change that might limit usage of most of our cars to 1000 miles a year. Most odd. As pointed out you're now using the electricity that was going to the car to make your hydrogen to power the car, but because of the losses at each stage you now have a less efficient process than just putting electric straight to the cars. Thing is, the more prolific electric cars become (especially in people who 'don't care' how their car gets from A to B) the longer fuel will last, the longer it will remain more plentiful, the longer we can run our retros at a reasonable cost. Agreed the goverment is going to have to think up a new money spinner to counter-balance lost earning on fuel duty. Plus if you think about it this way, say we went to a nuclear / wind / tidal / solar setup for all UK energy..... no need to rely on russian gas prices, OPEC oil prices etc for the UK economy and what not. The answer to the first paragraph is simple - power the power staions with Hydrogen, like the one in Italy recently: www.alternative-energy-news.info/first-hydrogen-power-plant-in-italy/Yeah you've still got the losses but you then just make more Hydrogen power stations, surely? The second paragraph - The Jay Leno defence. that also works for Hydrogen.
|
|
Last Edit: Jan 7, 2011 21:18:51 GMT by e21meister
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting giving up their retro and replacing with a modern electric car. It's more a matter of embracing the new technology and trying to come up with solutions to the limited resource that is fossil fuels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting giving up their retro and replacing with a modern electric car. It's more a matter of embracing the new technology and trying to come up with solutions to the limited resource that is fossil fuels. I'm not sure everyone on this thread realises that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In the future, I am going to open a Gym and have all the exercise bikes hooked up to my Tesla, that way I get Gym fees to help pay for the batteries, and free electricity to run the thing ;D Can I nominate Pandaselecta for entrepreneur of the year? I also want hydrogen powered engine 'cubes' that simply slot into an already converted 'cage' thats in the engine bays of petrol cars*, thus making them future proof and environmentally friendly (*the cage is made so you connect the necessary hoses/electrics etc to the cage from the rest of the car, then the 'cube' slots into the cage and you can run the car almost immediately
|
|
1993 Fiat Panda Selecta 2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van 2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
|
|
duncanmartin
Club Retro Rides Member
Out of retro ownership
Posts: 1,320
Club RR Member Number: 70
|
|
|
You really think most people are gonna go to the faff of popping back out in the rain/snow/earthquakes (if you're up north) to replug their cars in to have the grid nick back what they've already paid for? Scalextrics can hardly move themselves that far, last thing you'd want when you're getting in the car for work is to find that The Grid has left you with an empty 'tank', so to speak. The idea is that you plug it in when you get home and your smart charger makes the decisions for you. You should also b able to set a minimum 'anytime' journey and times when you want it to be fully charged. For this to work, you have to be able to sell the electricity back to the grid (lke a feed in tarif), and also have electricity where the price varies in real time. The tech already exists for both of those things. Personally, the idea of having my car earning money for me when I'm not using it appealing. That reads to me like the H2 is a by product of anothor industrial process (cracking ethylene?). The normal way to produce H2 industially is to pass electricity through water...
|
|
|
|
RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
|
|
|
There was a rolling chassis for a lotus 7 style kit using a big old electric motor at the Exeter kit car show, looked very interesting, but I can imagine the weight of a decent batch of battery's spoiling a little car like that some what. Although I think they were building it for drag racing.
I'm all for electric daily drivers, but that said, I'm all for getting the train to work, or just cycling, or just walking. Trouble is I work too far away to walk/cycle, and there's no train station in this sleepy little Somerset town. I could get the bus, but buses from here to work take longer than cycling, cost more than driving, are uncomfortable and stop running at 7:30, nice dedication to the only available method of public transport there local government.
Maybe a system of standardised plug in battery's that you exchange for charged ones at fuel stations could work? Obviously you'd pay a little for the charge in them. Something a long the lines of a normal family car needing for example 5 battery's, while a luxury car would need 8 or so, and an electric motorbike could just stick to 1. This would allow impromptu trips as far as you like, without the issues of producing and storing hydrogen. It would also mean that the battery's would be treated as a fuel, separate to the car its self, which I can imagine would make the production and recycling of them more efficient, as they could be dealt with in larger quantity's. This would also spread the cost of replacing the battery's to a few pence per fuel stop, rather than a big lump sum every few years.
|
|
Last Edit: Jan 7, 2011 22:17:24 GMT by RobinJI
|
|
|
|
|
Jonny you're no doubt right about that report, but I have zero faith in any single report on anything, septical me y'see, and that includes one that says throwing away 2800 batteries is a good thing. You boys can embrace the new stuff if you like. One day petrol motors will be banned. I'll be like the bloke in the song, illegally hiding a Barchetta, going for runs chased by the carbon police and the milkfloat cops etc. 'cept it'll probs be something 60s, British, and I'll be caught at the first corner
|
|
'66 Amazon <-> '94 LS400 <-> '86 Suzuki 1135 EFE
|
|
|