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Jan 22, 2011 19:14:38 GMT
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All this sounds like some one decided the rules where unfair on importing vehicles, got themselves wound up, hired laywers and pursued the case and won. Then the law of unintended consequences came into play and everyone wishes people had left alone.
Its a good thing ACE is about to raise these issues or I would have no idea these plans are even coming. I have to say I support the our membership of the EU but it really has to stop trying to define everything and I wish organisations like FIVA would stop being so pompus about deciding what is historic and what isn't. It's originality snobbery and will end up like the listing resctrictions on houses, needlesly resctrive. I mean if the Tudors had plastic guttering an drain pipes they would have used them. Next you won't be able to replace the knackered engine in something historic with someone thing more modern and fuel efficient because that is obviously a FIVA sin.
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Jan 22, 2011 19:16:19 GMT
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The ace website is down!
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Jan 22, 2011 19:39:33 GMT
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Arrocuda, just run through some figures we have on file , making Historics pay tax would raise almost £63 million a year (306990 registered as Historic last January ) Do you have any figures on how much would be lost if the cars registered between 1973 and 1981 were to become tax exempt? I would like to bet that's a higher figure, cos the majority would be on the road.
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Jan 22, 2011 20:59:13 GMT
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So look at it the other way Fred, would you rather they said " To save on all this trouble we will do away with Historic and have that tax as well instead of giving more away , after all we are 'all in this together' ) . Another reason to keep the status quo. Website not down, just my crappy linking , now sorted
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Last Edit: Jan 22, 2011 21:00:26 GMT by kapri
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Jan 22, 2011 23:35:32 GMT
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really? You are happy to pay more for everything, and I mean everything from sugar to petrol, just to drive a car that should by rights be tax exempt? Sorry but I don't think I will be.... I'd be happy knowing that people doing 30,000 miles a year will be paying a tax amount that reflects this. And that no-one anywhere is dodging their road tax. And there's no reason why any car should be,by rights tax exempt is there? The roads they drive on all have to be maintained don't they? Yeah,i'd take the hit.....it's the only fair way. Use more fuel,pay more tax. Not to mention you could do away with the entire bureaucracy required to administer VED, and free up police from enforcing the law with respect to driving an untaxed vehicle.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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Jan 22, 2011 23:39:08 GMT
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Arrocuda, just run through some figures we have on file , making Historics pay tax would raise almost £63 million a year (306990 registered as Historic last January ) I think you misunderstand me Kev.... The point I was making about the government doing away with historic vehicle tax altogether in my last post was that when it comes to setting internal tax rates they have no legal obligation to follow Europe, so the two issues are mutually exclusive IRRESPECTIVE of whether the outlawing of modifying cars law is upheld in Europe or not. This of course does not include import duties as they are supposed to be uniform so as to prevent anti competitive trading between member states. Which is why the guys importing the cars won their case..... but the same rule does not apply with regard to internal taxes. So to my way of thinking the rolling tax exemption issue is a red herring and should be kept aside anyway as it tends to undermine the argument for maintaining the status quo.
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'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Arro, you're just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic with that strategy. If the end comes as a result of taxation or a usage ban or an enforced recycling or what have you... that is merely the technical manifestation of the ends. That's a good delaying tactic to quibble over this % or that %. But it's no substitute for a very serious confrontation over the quasi-religious "science" this green hysteria is founded upon. The fact is agendized climatologists, meterological guessers, and doom-saying Nostradamuses have variously been saying we're getting colder, no warmer, no colder, no warmer, on-and-off for the last 50 years to suit their gummit grants and job security. They haven't a farking clue or scintilla of proof of what LAST year's average temp was, much less what it was 50 years ago or 500 years ago, or man's ability of jacking it up or down. Or whether it's good or bad to even try to jack it up or down. Laugh at them, then realize they are winning in the battle to fundamentally change our lives, even though they are completely daft. It's time to fight the agenda, by demanding exact proof before this economic suicide by the West continues further. Proof of trends and proof that any huge changes in policy are WORTH doing, ie. will be effective. Not a hunch. But proof. Scat like this is a joke. But we're living the joke foisted upon us. (And the Third World -emerging to be First World powers- and China aren't playing by the same GW rulebook, either.) Just one joke, that's not funny: wattsupwiththat.com/2011/01/21/what-sort-of-forecast-does-the-met-office-supercomputer-make/
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Arro, you're just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic with that strategy. It's not supposed to be a strategy Norm..... all I'm pointing out to everyone is that this country didn't sign up to the whole EU deal, in that we retained sovereignty over setting the rates for internal taxes. So all the talk about the rolling tax exemption for historic vehicles that's been mentioned many times over the last 18 pages is not relevant to the problem of the FIVA's proposal for defining what is/isn't a historic vehicle. The government here has no obligation to adopt the EU rolling tax exemption and could even remove the existing exemption for pre '72 vehicles, irrespective of whether the FIVA proposal is upheld. So.... what I'm proposing is that WHEN the strategy is put together, we need to stay focused on the problem, which is the FIVA and not colour the issue with talk of things that have no relevance to the objective of our campaign. Unlike many on here (probably Kev being the only exception) I've had face to face negotiations with government ministers, junior ministers and regulators back in the nineties..... and when you have a meeting you find yourself sat down with the minister and about half a dozen other people who are made up of secretaries, departmental advisers and legal advisers. Anybody who thinks they can walk in there with their d1ck in their hand, blag their way through and come out with a result is living on Fantasy Island!
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2011 10:01:36 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 23, 2011 11:13:45 GMT
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I totally agree that the FIVA definition is the 'enemy', however many need to be shown the POSSIBLE implications otherwise it is only a 'yet another piece of EU meddling that has no relevance to us' scenario.
Just like most thought that way about the consultations on EU wide MOT standard or laid down spec for tyres which is also beginning to affect supply of certain retro only sizes.
I haven't personally had face to face meetings but one of our team has experience in that field. I have experience in top level management negotiations in a past life so something like that holds no fear.
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Jan 23, 2011 13:57:17 GMT
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So look at it the other way Fred, would you rather they said " To save on all this trouble we will do away with Historic and have that tax as well instead of giving more away , after all we are 'all in this together' ) . Another reason to keep the status quo. Website not down, just my crappy linking , now sorted That's not what I asked though is it, though you do have a point. If it was possible to completely back out of the Historical free tax I am sure they would have done by now. Capping it off to only include pre 1973 cars was the easiest way to limit it, damage limitation if you will.
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Jan 23, 2011 14:23:53 GMT
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If it was possible to completely back out of the Historical free tax I am sure they would have done by now. Capping it off to only include pre 1973 cars was the easiest way to limit it, damage limitation if you will. It's more complicated than that Fred..... as IIRC the Tories originally introduced it as a rolling 30 year exemption and then the Labour lot got in and decided that it was being abused so modified the legislation so it didn't roll forward any more. Not saying the Tories would be in favour of reinstating the rolling exemption the way things are now.... but with it being originally concieved by a conservative administration it's probably less likely that they would scrap it all together.
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2011 14:26:04 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 23, 2011 14:34:21 GMT
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I don't think it is more complicated than that, Fred has it bob-on. It was introduced a a rolling 25-year thing (not 30), but then labour was elected and they didnt think it fitted in with what they were all about so they effectively stopped it, without causing the few thousand folk who alrady were using it, to go ape.
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1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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Jan 23, 2011 16:33:54 GMT
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Anybody who thinks they can walk in there with their d1ck in their hand, blag their way through and come out with a result is living on Fantasy Island! You clearly haven't worked at the highest levels of government.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Jan 23, 2011 16:42:37 GMT
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Anybody who thinks they can walk in there with their d1ck in their hand, blag their way through and come out with a result is living on Fantasy Island! You clearly haven't worked at the highest levels of government. I've never worked in government Norm.... I was at the meetings representing the interests of private enterprise and TBH I found negotiating with politicians to be one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. Too many hidden agendas.... a bit like on here! ;D
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'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 23, 2011 17:01:04 GMT
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Yeah, well, having worked as a lobbyist in DC and Ohio -and still do- I can report to you PLENTY of d1ck waving. In fact, that is primary coin of the realm in politics. And the "technical sheep" who roll out their social studies handbooks about "how a bill becomes a law" or a "suggestion becomes a regulation" are whistling in the graveyard. Their "flow chart" world is the Fantasy Island. Very few see The Great Oz pulling at the stops behind the curtain. The soap opera of debate and unctuous committee meetings is political theatre for public consumption. This is not bitterness talking or a laugh, it is the truth based upon human experience. Pants put on same way here as over there.... or anywhere.
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2011 17:10:20 GMT by Team Blitz
Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Jan 23, 2011 17:28:15 GMT
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I don't know how it works over in the US but over here...... when putting your case forward (as a private individual) you have to provide lots of detail and have evidential material to support your case. They don't need to provide anything to substantiate what they say cos no one appears to be accountable for anything. The meetings are constantly interrupted whilst they go into a huddle with their advisers. The legal guys don't appear to understand plain English and are constantly looking for hidden meanings in the documentation. You spend all morning trying to put a concept across to them that to you is so simple you would expect a child to understand in the time it takes to drink a cup of coffee. You leave the room so stressed out with their apparent stupidity you don't know what town you're in and then 2 weeks later you find yourself opening a letter filled will all manner of BS and waffle inviting you to come down and do it all again with someone else!!
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2011 17:46:09 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 23, 2011 18:19:34 GMT
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^^That's because you've been lulled into playing THEIR game. Remember, I proposed a 2-prong strategy. One a delaying action, your ACE game, tactical dicing if you will. The other a strategic defeat, with a broadbased coalition lined up against the bogus green religion "science" using job losses, energy price skyrocketing, decline in tax revenue, and populist political asskicking (as in THEIR job loss) as persuasion. But there is a gonad deficit it seems, and I'll not tarry longer on the subject as a soloist.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Jan 23, 2011 18:35:39 GMT
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^^That's because you've been lulled into playing THEIR game. Yeah.... but it got us the result we wanted..... even if it did cost me about £2000 in expenses just to attend all the damned meetings. Lobbying here happens behind closed doors and if there's no personal incentives on the table for the politicians involved, you have to make damned sure you have a cast iron case that they can't afford to overlook in case the press gets hold of it and makes them look incompetent or worst still dishonest. It takes a lot of time to collect and prepare the evidence and the support documentation and even more time to attend the endless meetings which is something I don't have right now.
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2011 18:45:56 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 23, 2011 19:14:37 GMT
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Yeah.... but it got us the result we wanted..... Oh yeah, if you're talking about a minor regulatory nudge or a comma in the next budget bill, that's all fine. GW policy as adopted, and now inculcated into EU legislation, is a world-shatteringly gigantic prospect to reverse. Of epic proportions. It's not going to get diminished or allayed in any substantive way by nipping at heels in meeting rooms or speaking in hushed tones through closed lavatory doors. This matter is way way past that, mate. Obv. I know you know that.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Jan 23, 2011 20:18:20 GMT
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It's not going to get diminished or allayed in any substantive way by nipping at heels in meeting rooms or speaking in hushed tones through closed lavatory doors. I don't think there is any other way of lobbying over here Norm..... it's not like we have a 'lobbying chamber' or some place where people get to stand up and put their case forward in public..... with some kind of judge presiding. Here... you either do it their way in their offices or you do it outside with placards. That's why it's called lobbying.... from the old times when they used to do it in the 'lobbys' before they took their seats in the house.
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2011 20:20:29 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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