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Oct 24, 2010 21:42:48 GMT
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Also, people tend to segregate between different websites, depending on thier interest (eg autoshite/RR/Rods'n'Sods), so that we are (on RR) surrounded by other people who are also doing things by the different way - which is largely rims'n'slam. A possible outcome of this is the constant refining of rims'n'slam, but not going much further. As for the reason that the different way of doing this developed, this could be due to a variety of contributing factors - rat being more mainstream, the economy, the relative ease of building a 'glass rod, and the threat of impending legislation putting people off doing silly things to an interesting Monocoque car. I think these are very good points: I think part of it (which I don't see as a bad thing) is the RR attitude of "as long as you're having funny with it". People on here enjoy looking at, and then enjoy making, subtly modified retros. I don't frequent many other fora (occasionally NSJC, increasingly rarely PPC) so I don't know what else is out there, but I think maybe Retro Rides welcomes and encourages the rim-and-slam type build? Maybe? Dunno.... The fibreglass rod thing and today's economy thing make me wonder, and do stop me if I'm talking out of my : is it related to what people do today? And I mean no disrepect to those that are young, self-taught, willing to have a go or actually building something, in fact quite the opposite. But (and this is just how it seems to me), look at the number of cars in CC that are built by the older gentleman, and the number of articles in, say, Classic Ford or Retro Cars that say "Gary, a paint sprayer by trade" or "Steve, a panel beater by trade". The changing face of industry in this country means there are fewer people working in industry, fewer welders, fabricators, machinists etc, who can then apply those skills to building a car. And it's not necessarily cheap or easy to just give it a go. Like I say, no disrespect, and no making excuses. But just wondering if that's a factor. For example, I'm 26 now, just finished a motorsport technology degree at uni; there are things I'm confident I could do, I know my way around an engine, I'm a font of knowledge about mixture formation, I can get my mind around aerodynamics, I know a lot of things. But there's no way in hell I could build something like Dez (who I believe is of a similar age?) has. Are people with these skills becoming fewer and farther between? Dunno. Could be talking curse word.
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1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary.
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Oct 24, 2010 22:04:17 GMT
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I think you're right about the declining level of hands-on skills amongst younger people due to the decline in manufacturing (and other blue-collar jobs), and the rise of the service/knowledge industry (and other white-collar jobs).
ICertainly there are fewer welders, machinists etc., and it is indeed very expensive to learn to weld or panel beat really well - especially for what is, essentially, just a hobby. Doing a level 3 welding course if you're going to work as a welder is a good investment, but if you're 'just' trying to do work on your car you're never going to see a financial retun on it. And there are far fewer people taking apprenticeships in practical trades these days.
As an aside, my grandfather (who worked in various car factories in Coventry in the 50s and 60s) tells of apprentices dedicating most of their time to 'foreigners' - ie jobs on people's private jobs, rather than factory business, such as repairs to a Ford in a Triumph factory - so that they got the widest base of knowledge and skills. He certainly thinks that the traditional engineering skills of the Midlands have largely been lost.
At 23, I like to think that there are few mechanical jobs that I can't complete given enough time - gearbox rebuilds aside - and while my welding got my car through an MOT it's nowhere near the standard it could, and shoud, be. I certainly couldn't contemplate a Dez-like build at the moment.
As a very simplistic example of the decline in hand-on skills, my friend at Uni (who is extremely intelligent and consistently gets better grades than me) has asked me to look at the handbrake on his Fiesta, because he has previously not done anything on a car beyond fill it with fuel and check the tyres and fluids. He's not incompetant, he just hasn't had the opportunity to develop that experience.
So yes, I would agree that people with the requisite skills are becoming fewer and further between.
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I think that there are several issues at work here. First and foremost, though, is that forums are fundamentally different to magazines. A magazine combines roughly half a dozen exquisitely finished feature cars per month into one glossy publication with nice photography, making it easy to put them all up on a pedestal as perfect cars. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that most people's cars were like this at the time!
This forum is filled with works-in-progress, people's daily drivers, low-budget 'just for fun' cars and kids' first cars. That's a great thing, but it exposes you to a much lower-budget and less-finished end of the car building spectrum than any magazine ever would, which can skew your view of cars slightly. Most feature cars in magazines would have to cost a minimum of $50,000 to $100,000+ to build, how many readers here have invested that in their cars? I'm not from the UK so I can't really comment on the situation there, but has the quality of the top handful of cars at the really big shows declined? I'm willing to bet that it hasn't. Just because not every car on the forum or at a local show'n'shine is a magazine cover car doesn't mean that the whole hobby has lost it's way.
To rmad's original question though, I think the reason that the focus of this forum isn't what he had originally imagined is because although the cars are retro, our attitudes aren't. People have changed with the times, and they aren't building cars in the same style of the late 80s and early 90s. It stands to reason that since all of the potential project material is now 20 years older, it is much rarer and more valuable, and hence people are less inclined to cut the same cars up. Also, modern cars don't lend themselves to the same kind of modification. And many other people's points about declining skills and so forth are valid.
One thing which I think is interesting, is to look at the ages of some of the modified cars when they were built. 1970s street machines were often built out of cars less than five years old, complete with wild flares, paint, engine builds and so forth. Do people still do this now? Yes, of course, but they are building modern cars with big-inch wheels and turbo kits. The philosophy is the same.
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I agree about the loss of skills may be a primary factor. However all of my abilities are self taught, no apprenticeships involved I just watched those who could and followed the techniques I saw. The more you do the better you get ...well that's the theory anyway I'e had a few cars featured in the past, including some in SM aswell but contrary to Wavemans post above I've never spent anything like that amount on them . You don't need to spend a fortune on paint and interior, it possible to achieve feature car quality at home for just the cost of materials PLUS time and dedication. It's possible that many don't want to spend that time /effort , or the money required for BIVA should they achieve that level of mods because they are not deeply in love with what they are building. I've usually run two type sof cars, those I'm happy just to roll in and those that are part of a masterplan, that were at that momemnt in time everything I wanted in a motor and that I was prepared to lavish all my time and money on. One big thing to remember also was that for every feature car you saw back then there were 10 started with the very best of intentions and left unfinished and languishing.
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I know we've had conversations around this for some time HoTWire.
I definitely think the standard is rising though.
I've spent more time browsing the Readers Rides threads in recent weeks and have been really pleasantly surprised with amount of builds that have way surpassed the level I was expecting to see.
However, I firmly believe that the people of England are lazy, and that is a massive reason why top end modified cars don't get finished. People will happily turn to not having time or money as a reason to not do something. There is always an excuse. If you want something bad enough, you make the time and you earn/save the money.
Cars don't have to be expensive, and the comment about learning to weld and do bodywork being expensive isn't true. A number of years back I did a welding/bodywork course, and it cost me a little of £100. I just don't think people can be bothered.
It is true that people of this country work long hours, however I think it is indicitive of what is wrong and typical of society. We have a 'live to work' instead of a 'work to live' mentality and that doesn't leave a lot left for some people.
But if you want something bad enough, you make it happen.
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Oct 25, 2010 16:30:48 GMT
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I see all the above points as valid but would like to some other thoughts. Times and fashion have changed modified cars from the SM era tended to be fairly radical be it in paint body mods etc. Look at current fashions the 'dub scene' probably being the most popular shares the same ethos as we seem to on RR. Wheels and stance seem to be order of the day also there is much more emphasis on go not show and the recent rise in J styling and drifting sees more cars made to do a particular job as opposed to blow your socks off wild paint and indepth body modifications.
Many of the builds on RR show the attention to detail that SM was full off but in a different and possibly more subtle way. Nearly all the builds listed so far are examples of excellent attention to detail and thinking outside the box but not sure any of them are what you (HotWire) would expect to see in your SM vision. (thats not a dig honest!) I think another thing that goes hand in hand with this is the 'seeming' average age of modifiers on this board. some of the spectacular builds that fit more closely with the SM vision are from builders that have been around cars for a long time and grew up on SM. Many others including myself while often having a love for old and unusual cars for a while are new to the modding side of things and definately still learning couple the young age or inexperiance with modern trends and influences and the fact that RR is a open and welcoming place that seems to cater for them better than anywhere else and I think what your seeing is the first years of the next generation of famous modders and their cars.
Are there SM type and standard; cars hidden amongst the RR fold.. yes there are. More to the point RR is producing builders with both the vision and capability to produce some epic builds in many cases not thanks to big budgets or indepth training but by them being encouraged and taught by the community from their first spring chopping to welding painting and so forth. That I think is the brilliant thing about the forum and it is and will be rewarded by some truely amazing cars maybe not in the same style as Street Machine but amazing in their own right.
May I make a suggestion... there are many mods on here involved in the car magazine industry etc. It would be nice for some of the more amazing builds to get more press within the forum and possibly further afield. Finding the gems in the readers rides is a mission as you all know. The cars of RR thread was a great idea but sadly just doesn't seem to be working, at least as I imagined it. Could we have something like a Readers Rides 'Gold' section of the cars/builds that are truely epic. It would give something for us mere mortals to aspire too.. I know I don't buy as many magazines now and mainly get my fix from here but with the readers rides section being filled with 90% of the slam and wheels brigade the bar is seemingly set low. (I'm not knocking the wheels and slam, I have been there and done it and will again and some truely are epic in their own right) With a 'Gold' section showing the sites more amazing builds it would bring them to the front, give us newbies more to aim for and also no doubt result in more cross coverage of the site across the WWW and perhaps more magazine features for users as the cars are not buried in the depths of Readers rides. I see it working by submition only.. you or fellow RR'ers can submit the thread to a/the mods if they think its really epic and ultimately magazine worthy then it gets moved to the 'Gold' section or at least a copied version perhaps the pictures and build commentary minus the pages of comments, those are important in their own right and could live on in the normal readers rides thread, but the Gold section would be all car no filler.. (no pun intended) Sorry for waffling on but hope you all get the jist.. and if the mods wanna take up my idea please do I think the site would be all the better for it. Joe
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Last Edit: Oct 25, 2010 16:40:22 GMT by joethefish
Daily: Spazda Mx5
'A52's Fastest steak eater 2010'
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Oct 25, 2010 18:07:43 GMT
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It is true that people of this country work long hours, however I think it is indicitive of what is wrong and typical of society. We have a 'live to work' instead of a 'work to live' mentality and that doesn't leave a lot left for some people. But if you want something bad enough, you make it happen. This is a very good (and very sad) point. And sadly not something that's likely to change without a sea-change in attitude. It's also interesting that you managed to find a bodywork course for that sort of price. To be honest I just assumed it would be fairly expensive; I haven't really looked that hard because, erm, I'm pretty lazy... Oh, and I think Joe's idea is a cracker.
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Last Edit: Oct 25, 2010 18:08:46 GMT by Rich606
1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,872
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Oct 25, 2010 18:20:47 GMT
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Another point - maybe the lack of Street Machine magazine is the reason people aren't building street machine cars. The problem with forums is that owners groups tend to stick together and get stuck in a "this is how to do it any other way is different" I got some real flack from the Carlton owners club because my car is lowered by more than 40mm and "it ruins the handling". My mate has a mildly euro'd MG ZR and got the same stick as "they" all do them with motorsport type mods.
I actually tried to add Rich Nicholls on facebook as I wouldn't mind a chat about how he sees the modified car scene today. He didn't accept though, which is fine really I don't accept anybody who I don't know lol.
Matt
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Oct 25, 2010 18:46:08 GMT
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Interesting point Matt - a magazine is a central focal point and being a static publication, if people want to slate a feature car off, they have to wait a month to see their comments and a lot of people can't be bothered. Now, with forums and instant right of reply, people feel obliged to have their say, whether the view is pointless or not. I'm a member of numerous forums, as I enjoy following different car cultures (RR isn't my favourite, but it's certainly entertaining) Is that any different to following numerous car magazines?
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Last Edit: Oct 25, 2010 18:48:07 GMT by e21meister
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Oct 25, 2010 19:22:28 GMT
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I think peoples personal situations have a big influence on what they choose to do. I'm lucky in that I've in essence inherited my father's and grandfather's tools and have almost free access to the family garage and was brought into a 'car friendly' family, my father being an amateur stock car racer back in the early 70's. On top of that I started at the age of 15 with my first build, a mildly modded series land rover, and now I'm on a more 'custom' rover p6. Almost everything I know is from trial and error, seeing and doing, rather than doing an evening course or other professional tuition. To build something truly special takes an immense amount of time and effort, my p6 has been on the go for over 7 years now Of all my friends and workmates into cars, I don't know anyone who has had the luck I've had in getting myself into modifying cars, or the disposeable income to buy a second, let alone third car, just to mess around with. To me it seems to be a sign of the times that many people don't get started at an early age and remain fearful of getting stuck in, not to mention that they only have the one car and nowhere suitable to break out the angle grinder, welder and compressor without having environmental health knocking on your door.
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Oct 25, 2010 21:18:23 GMT
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Back in the the days of Street Machine - Custom Car & CCC the cars that got me most interested were the project DMC's type cars, (Dole Money Cruisers for those who can't remember/weren't around then) But maybe being just out of school on apprenticeship wages they seemed inspirational to me as a way of building a car that you could take to shows/meets and be affordable and not frowned upon. which are really the 'lower, rims, smoothed body & paint with usually stock running gear that is alot of what you see on RR now. I always read these sort of features with much more interest than the top spec rods that seemed unobtainable to me. In mine & my mates youth were were messin around with old fords mostly mk2 escorts, Capris, cortinas etc as they were cheap! & easily available! How times change LOL I remember taking my corsair to RTTs in '95 and a particular comment from one guy to his mates saying look a 'cal look' corsair, Slammed, bigger rims with stretched tyres debumpered, de-trimmed & a pastel green paint job, all done on the cheap & got loads more attention than the rows of similar themed Beetles that probably cost 3 times as much to build. I even had the old 70's style roof rack with a couple of old BMX's/Raleigh burners on the roof. A thing that seems to be very kitch & popular now although it's tongue in cheek. we were serious about it then only did it because they were a great way to get about the campsite or into town easy I am probably rambling now sorry. the point I am trying to make is back in those days the scene was a lot more compartmentalized. IMHO and you didn't have the wide breadth of cars that this site seems to have with it's welcoming attitude & lack of you can't seriously be messing around with one of those attitude. so to sum up as others have said there are some really good builds /projects out there that you can find if you really look hard, but I see this site as being about having fun with old retro tin without the negative peerage that some clubs/forums have
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Oct 25, 2010 22:25:25 GMT
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I find myself now looking at my car and thinking it'd be fine lowered on its new wheels... but really? Would that have been enough for me when I started the forum,... I'd have wanted a different interior, a smoothed engine bay, preferably with a big upgrade in the power department, I'd want bodywork smoothed in the right way, painted in the right way, all the little touches that move it from being a "wheels + low" job to being a proper custom... now when I look at it 'good enough' is enough,.. and that isn't right (to me)... Do you know what? This makes me feel ashamed. About 4 of my projects fit this bill, but instead I'm inside on t'internet. To be fair, I'm working, but even so... must crack on with one of them at least. In other news all the points made above by everyone, I agree with them all.
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Good thread. I see what you mean Hotwire but the quality is still out their, just not as many of those type of cars just beause the scene has changed somewhat in my opinion. I can only really speak for the VW scene as i don't go to rod runs etc any more but smoothed bays, cool paint, smoothed bodywork, channeling jobs, roof chops etc are all their. Your right its not as common now but thats a good thing for the people who have the skill to do it! if i had half the skill to 'build' a car it would be a right beast but i can barely change a wheel so bolting stuff on is enough to make me happy
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judgie
Part of things
wanaba stig
Posts: 274
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from somone in the industry these are my views. it is and allways has been expensive to build a car, any car. when you have to pay somone to build that car and a lot of folk have to pay someone to do what they cant do [we cant do everthing] i have seen a trend towards just keeping it on the road and working rather than spending money on "trick bits". this will only change when the money in the pocket becomes a bit more, we are all feeling the pinch and the first thing that folk normal stop is the toys. the cars are still getting done, i have just finished a wizard roadster on hydros for a customer with a tuned motor but he has had to rain it in a bit due to cash flow. even the race cars are not getting the sort of money spent on them that 3 4 years ago was esay to come by, there still getting worked on but more rebuilding to how it was rather than make it faster. As has been said above a lot of the skills have been lost, I'm 38 and think my genuration was one of the last to come through the apprentiship system, i see more coming htrough now which is a good thing but the late 20 somthings went into desk jobs and made there money there so don't have the skills that a lot of us take for granted. I also think the its the insurance side of things that have stopped a lot of the younger ones from building as insurance companys really don't like young drivers and modefied cars. the cars are getting built there just taking longer and i think some of the wilder cars folk are keeping quite about so that when they come out there freesh.
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Oct 26, 2010 10:26:16 GMT
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There must have a been a fairly large proportion of youngsters improving cars just to go faster and then carrying on from there, i know i was, a 1300 Escort was pretty basic and slow. Modern cars go faster to start with and come full of goodies so maybe theres less incentive to get the spanners out these days, much easier to buy a hot hatch than fit a bigger engine and luxury interior and if you don't get the bug when your young maybe you never do?
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Oct 26, 2010 10:40:04 GMT
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I think one positive thing has come from this thread - and perhaps an ironic one - is that we should all maybe put down our mouses and pick up our spanners a little more often. And to everyone on this forum who feels they lack the skills to do more in-depth work on their cars; The Internet is a vast undiscovered country where you can find the way to do most things if you ask the right questions. And there are plenty of courses on how to weld, do basic bodywork etc. Pick up a copy of Hotcourses or similar, you can find loads of stuff if you want to put the basic effort in and have the desire. #steps down from precher's rostrum#
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,546
Club RR Member Number: 11
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Oct 26, 2010 12:44:33 GMT
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I would say the games moved on from the whole Street Machine vibe, and the fact the magazine doesn't exist anymore confirms this in my eyes. As someone has mentioned IVA/BIVA etc could well be scaling peoples ideas back a notch. Also I would have thought economic factors such as cost of living/cost of running big v8's/ cost of parts/labour costs are all considerations to take into account maybe. If there's a toss up between paying the mortgage and eating OR getting a lovely chrome plated V8 installed.......
In my opinion the whole street machine style is a remnant of the 80's and has died off the same way 90's bodykitted stuff is beginning to die off and the same way Euro and rat style will die off. Natural evolution of car modification. The younger generation are more into the fashionable style of the time than a dying style seen as old. I dare say the majority of 'Street Machine' builds these days are by people who grew up with it either observing it as a teenager/youth or involved in it back then....
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Oct 26, 2010 12:49:22 GMT
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On a lighter note though, Street Machine magazine is still alive and well in Australia, and so is the hobby: www.summernats.com.au/index.php?option=com_morfeoshow&task=view&gallery=22Pro Street is still fairly big in Australia too, although thankfully Predator carbs have now gone out of fashion! Blowers haven't though! It also helps that we can still buy V8-powered rear-wheel-drive cars brand new here for less than a years' wages, and fill them up with fuel without completely breaking the bank. That helps keep the young kids involved in the street machine scene, because the modern V8 stuff is inevitably linked back to it's history in the late '60s and early '70s cars. Perhaps the young kids who grow up dreaming of an Evo Lancer or an RS Focus don't feel the same connection to the old heavy iron?
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mrdave
Part of things
Posts: 26
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Oct 26, 2010 13:27:28 GMT
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Trends change, in 15 years we will be asking why noone builds cars with a big drop and nice wheels and clean standard bodywork anymore.
I love the street machine cars, I love max power cars from 10 years ago as well, they are all interesting to me but also very much of their time.
As to whoever who said they can take on everything other than gearboxes, just give it a go its very easy if you go about it in an ordered fashion, people in the UK are scared of gearboxes, even school kids in America rebuild theirs.
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Oct 26, 2010 15:14:56 GMT
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Another thing is the total time required to create a feature worthy Street Machine car. Most of mine have taken 12 -18 months with around 20-30 hours per week spent . That means a car off the road for that period of time plus garage ,equipment and another motor to run round , quite an investment all in all.
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Last Edit: Oct 26, 2010 15:33:10 GMT by kapri
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