markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Apr 22, 2010 14:53:15 GMT
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My Car is 4x100. My Wheels (well two of them) are 4x4" The bore of the holes (and taper washer to suit) is 15.8mm or 5/8" The studs are 12mm This means that although the wheel PCD is slightly larger than the hub the wheels go over the studs no problem. I know that some have fitted 4x4" wheels to 4x100 hubs with no problem, but when I trial fitted a wheel I could see how not central the studs were in the holes, so much so that I would not like to force them to fit, forinstance using taper/taper washers and tapered nuts. So I've come up with this solution. The wheels are centered on the hub using aluminium spigot rings, so that the studs are just providing the holding force pressing the wheel onto the hub face. Flat topped tapered washers to suit the wheels are put on first, then plain washers that have a 12mm bore to suit the stud, and then a the wheel nut (in this case a standard steel wheel nut with the taper machined flat - but I'd rather use and acorn nut with the taper machined flat or a flanged nut). This assembely allows the stud to sit eccentricly in the wheel/taper washer hole and means that when tightened there is the normal longditudinal force on the stud without it being bent sideways. Taper washer in location on the wheel How the assembely would look Possibly do away with the washer? The selection of parts. Engineers, what is your learned view of this scheme?
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Last Edit: Apr 22, 2010 15:31:30 GMT by markbognor
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Apr 22, 2010 15:21:42 GMT
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4x4" wheels will go on a 4x100mm car with wobble bolts. BUT - and it's a BIG BUTT (and I cannot lie) - they need to be hub-centric. Otherwise your wheel could end up off-centre, causing wobbles, fatigue, broken studs and disappearing wheels. So unless your wheels have the correct centre bore, you'll end up needing spigot rings.
Imps have a problem with fitting 4x100mm on their 4x4", since the Imp uses stud-centric wheels, and the hubs a) don't have much of space to fit spigot rings to, and b) are eccentric enoguh to need machining to stop the wheel wobbing. Most cars, however, use hub-centric wheels.
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Apr 22, 2010 15:29:52 GMT
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There, updated now.
I'm aware of how important hubcentricity is, if i'm not using the studs to centre the wheels.
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Apr 22, 2010 15:33:44 GMT
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That is effectively a home brewed wobble bolt / nut is it not?
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1997 TVR Chimaera 2009 Westfield Megabusa
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Apr 22, 2010 15:40:11 GMT
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Yeah, that's what I thought, and why I think it is reasonable.
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Apr 22, 2010 15:48:50 GMT
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Looks like an excellent solution to me bud You've dealt with the centring and the 'holding on' of the wheels - that's all they need
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Apr 22, 2010 15:51:23 GMT
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Mark, I just posted based on what you'd said - I hope someone reading it in the archives finds it useful. Glad you've taken hub-concentricity into account. Wobbly wheels give me the fear.
The difference between a wobble bolt that is that the washer on a wobble bolt has an off-centre hole. The bolt/nut then has a short shank or sleeve that fits into that hole.
I'm Not a mechanical engineer, but that looks ok to me. My only concern would be the tapered bits tilting on their seats in the wheel due to the non-central force applied to them by the nut. However, if they are a straight taper they should be fine - I'd be more concerned if they were a sperical or radial seat.
I'd leave the plain 12mm washer on, so that the nut is clamping down onto a flat surface all-round, rather than hanging over a hole (I'm assuming that the tapered washers have a central 5/8" hole, rather than an eccentric 12mm hole). I might even be tempted to find a slightly heavier washer to go there, just to be sure that the washer won't deform (but then I do tend to over-engineer things a bit).
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Apr 22, 2010 15:58:39 GMT
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Yeah, I was a bit concerned about the taper washer tilting. I had hoped that the washers were the same as the originals and fitted snugly in the hole and on the taper - this is what original wolfrace washers do. These have been bought as wolfrace washers from mrT, who has confirmed that they are the only od that they are now supplied in. I suppose I could machine my own set, that would reduce the likely hood of the washer tilting.
I think your right about using a thicker washer too, I just wanted an example and that what we had in stock.
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Apr 22, 2010 16:08:36 GMT
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The OD looks fine to me - it's just that I suspect that as standard the 5/8" sleeve of the nut would hold them straight. If they 'fit' the taper of the wheel (ie same taper angle) they will probably be fine. Try putting one in and rocking it from side to side while pushing down on it gently. If there's movement then I'd be concerned, but if the location is positive then it'll be fine.
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Apr 22, 2010 16:20:24 GMT
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That looks like a very good and thought-trough solution to me, bearing in mind i'm no engineer Have you considered making the holes longer and using the proper sleeve nuts? Many rims made for sleeve nuts use ovlong holes for multiple pcd fitment. Edit: looking at the pics i guess enlarging the holes is a slightly bigger task than with "ordinary" sleeve-nut wheels.
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Last Edit: Apr 22, 2010 16:21:41 GMT by dude
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purplevanman
Posted a lot
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Apr 22, 2010 18:40:46 GMT
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Unless i have missed something, wont the wheel move back and fore as the stud is smaller than the hole and the taper washer is able to slip under the nut?
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Welder, fabricator, general resto work
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purplevanman
Posted a lot
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Apr 22, 2010 18:42:27 GMT
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as an edit to above.. what about a taper washer with the central hole, sized to the stud, offset?
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Welder, fabricator, general resto work
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Apr 22, 2010 18:57:54 GMT
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Yeah its possible that if the nuts came loose it could rotate around its centre untill it hit a stud. Although thats bad it would still be running true until the ally spigot ring gave up. I'd already decided to make them from aluminium so that they were a little bit more likely to support the weight of the car than plastic ones if the nuts came loose.
I think tapered washers with an eccentric hole (.8mm off centre) would be a great way to do it, but was not sure if it would be certain that they would seat naturally, particuarly if the wheel was rotated slightly compared to the studs, which is why this option came to mind.
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
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Apr 22, 2010 18:59:12 GMT
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Unless I have missed something, wont the wheel move back and fore as the stud is smaller than the hole and the taper washer is able to slip under the nut? The hub centric spigot rings ought to solve that. Looks like a pretty good solution to me MB. I think you ought to get some thicker nuts and longer studs if necessary so you've got more thread engagement between the two. By machining off the taper from the nuts you've probably lost about a third of its thickness. If memory serves thread engagement length should be about 1.5 times diameter. My only other initial concern is that tapers help lock the nut in place and you've obviously lost that but then flat faced sleeve nuts don't have a taper either and there's plenty of wheel combos that run with them (the Herald alloys included!) Would look and perhaps function better if the flat washers were close in diameter to the recess.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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rtlkyuubi
Posted a lot
Low and Slow
Posts: 2,922
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Apr 22, 2010 19:45:24 GMT
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Seems like a great way to sovle the problem, and this is slightly off topic since I'm talking about steel wheels. But I'm running 4x4inch pcd weller wheels on my micra (both micra's ive had) with no spigot ring and I have yet to get any wheel wobble, missing wheels etc.
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Apr 22, 2010 19:51:53 GMT
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Seems like a great way to sovle the problem, and this is slightly off topic since I'm talking about steel wheels. But I'm running 4x4inch pcd weller wheels on my micra (both micra's ive had) with no spigot ring and I have yet to get any wheel wobble, missing wheels etc. I admit to running the same on my polo (4x4" wellers) with no issues. I made a habit of checking the wheel bolts and tyre pressures everyday though.
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1997 TVR Chimaera 2009 Westfield Megabusa
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Apr 22, 2010 21:32:53 GMT
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I've made a few wheel adaptors and spacers etc after around 18 years in engineering and your solution looks perfectly acceptable to me mate a nice set of acorn headed nuts would finish if off
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You've been telling me you were a genius since you were seventeen ... in all the time I've known you I still don't know what you mean !
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purplevanman
Posted a lot
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Posts: 3,830
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Apr 22, 2010 22:27:37 GMT
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Seth, spigot rings will keep it central but they wont stop the turning back and forth under acceleration and then braking? The sleeve nuts use flat washers thats true but then the sleeve is a tighter fit in the hole than this setup. I would probably run like this but just bringing a bit of discussion matter to the surface I reckon i would turn a taper washer that fits the hole, tight fit, right upto the surface of the wheel and then drill the .8 off center hole to fit the studs, aesthetics catered for, and safer I reckon. Or even sleeve the hole with a length of bar and redrill that? I know it's a bit pedantic but ...
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Welder, fabricator, general resto work
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LowStandards
Club Retro Rides Member
Bigging Up The Sum Sum Man Since '99
Posts: 2,665
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The difference between a wobble bolt that is that the washer on a wobble bolt has an off-centre hole. The bolt/nut then has a short shank or sleeve that fits into that hole. Every set of wobble bolts i've ever had aint like this! There basically a washer with a larger diameter hole than the stud/bolt so it can move freely and seat correctly!!!
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Having taken on board grunty’s concerns about the wheel rotating around its axis, how about this: Top hat washers with an eccentric hole, sized to fit over the stud, and into the bore of the taper washer, achieving holding the taper washer perpendicular to the stud, and allowing for the difference in pcd. That one is a trial in aluminium to get an idea of what I was doing. I drilled the offset hole by setting the bar up in a four jaw chuck the moving it in one direction the 0.8mm. ]
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