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Dec 18, 2005 23:40:47 GMT
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EDIT: READ WATER PUMP NOT FUEL its been a long day shopping sorry... We do technical questions here don't we i have been asking around techy places and the response is a mixed bag. some like, some don't, they are two different beasts after all. i have a tight squeeze under the bonnet and currently no cooling system and an electronic one sounded just the ticket anyone any comments or brand/product suggestions? this is xmas 05 job. thanks for the help, merry Christmas
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Dec 18, 2005 23:48:21 GMT
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I wouldnt personally We ran some tests on a Davis Craig pump to see if we could verify their claims. We couldnt and there were some fundamental flaws in their thinking too.... It lost power not gained it, water temperature guage indicated it was doing its job, fully instrumented cylinder head on an engine dyno showed it very definately wasnt Over time you would not do any motor a lot of good running one. Stick with a mechanical pump, remote mount one if you have to, they do at least work ;D Just my experience
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Dec 18, 2005 23:57:12 GMT
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A 'Davis Craig' pump? You shouldn't have any problems 'getting a rewind' at least.
Defo an interesting subject, in theory a mechanical or electronic drive shouldn't make any difference to the 'effectiveness' of the pump. But I suppose it might be difficult to correctly 'match' an aftermarket pump to a certain application and achieve a suitable flow rate over the whole engine speed range. I presume the electric ones turn at a constant speed?
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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The latest issue of PPC has an article about an electric water pump made by a comapny called MAW. It claims it moves 110 litres of water a minute and is suitable for engines up to 8 litre. Cost is a pretty steep £179 though. Phone number is 01273 493343.
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Dec 19, 2005 11:43:46 GMT
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A 'Davis Craig' pump? You shouldn't have any problems 'getting a rewind' at least. Thats what i was thinking ;D
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Dec 19, 2005 11:46:43 GMT
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The latest issue of PPC has an article about an electric water pump made by a comapny called MAW. It claims it moves 110 litres of water a minute and is suitable for engines up to 8 litre. Cost is a pretty steep £179 though. Phone number is 01273 493343. I have PPC don't know how i missed it. will look at that tonight. I'd heard theres a new one out as it was spotted in Retro Cars, generally theres some bad feedback coming from the older ones at least. Hmm, back to the drawing board
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Dec 19, 2005 11:59:35 GMT
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A 'Davis Craig' pump? You shouldn't have any problems 'getting a rewind' at least. Thats what i was thinking ;D Davis Craig are an Australian company that make the electric water pumps and electronic controllers, that are widely bandied about as a performance mod. Sold by Demon Thieves etc Nothing to do with a self obsessed singer ;D
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Dec 19, 2005 13:15:11 GMT
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Dec 19, 2005 13:53:28 GMT
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I'm really suprised to hear a bad report about an electronic water pump. I know 6 people that use them (4 on race/hillclimb cars and 2 on road/trackday cars) and they all rate them as excellent buys. Did the rolling road say what it was/wasn't doing correctly? It seems like a simple and very logical improvement to me. The only thing that's put me off so far is the price (inc the controller).
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Dec 19, 2005 14:20:57 GMT
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I'm really suprised to hear a bad report about an electronic water pump. I know 6 people that use them (4 on race/hillclimb cars and 2 on road/trackday cars) and they all rate them as excellent buys. Did the rolling road say what it was/wasn't doing correctly? It seems like a simple and very logical improvement to me. The only thing that's put me off so far is the price (inc the controller). It wasnt a rolling road it was a fully instumented engine on an Engine Dyno at Cosworth. Pumps were specced to engine and coolant capacity and flow requirements With Temperature probes in the head casting to measure combstion temps and the heat transfer to coolant. Basically the Electric pumps were not moving enough water to get effective heat transfer out of the combustion chamber. This in turn lead to power dropping off as temperatures rose and worse was microboiling of the coolant on the casting above the chamber which causes very fast erosion of the head casting.... this was found by cutting the (extremely expensive) head up afterwards to confirm an initial borescope inspection. Not something you would show up on a rolling road, or a hillclimb or sprint for that matter And not the kind of testing that an electric pump supplier is likely to do either..... The first you would know about it is that nice, fully ported race head that cost you an arm and a leg has suddenly gone porous or cracked due to the casting wall being eroded away Cheap horsepower then isnt it ;D
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Dec 19, 2005 15:02:45 GMT
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Dec 19, 2005 15:07:38 GMT
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Here's the thing though: Pumps were specced to engine and coolant capacity and flow requirements But: Basically the Electric pumps were not moving enough water to get effective heat transfer out of the combustion chamber. Perhaps they were specced in accordance with their makers guidelines, and the guidelines were ill-defined. I like the idea of an electric water pump, got to be more efficient than an old mechanical water-wheel, agreed though that the ones on the market probably have not had a proper thorough evaluation process to match them correctly to whatever the water capacity/heat loss/flow rates etc etc might be of a certain engine. its got to be more complicated than ‘this pump shifts X litres/min and is therefore OK on engines up to Y litres capacity'.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Dec 19, 2005 16:50:42 GMT
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I`l have a chat with the cooling engineer who did the testing at Cosworth. There was a fundamental flaw with the pumps and the assumptions that Davis Craig made for them. I just cant remember off the top of my head what it was ;D The Theory is in principle sound, in practice it doesent work because of X........ I just need to remember what X is ;D I shall return with the answer
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Dec 19, 2005 16:55:19 GMT
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Ive heard all sorts of problems with those davis craig pumps, autospeed australia did a test, anddecided that they didnt do their job. Davis craig the company then got all shirty and threatened legal action, autospeed has to withdraw the article. So Davis craig obviously knows that there is problems but they are just not willing to admit it.
Has anyone done any tests to see how much power a water pump draws? It must be quite a bit as water isnt exactly the least dense material to move around, so an electric one must be pretty powerful?
J
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Dec 19, 2005 18:10:19 GMT
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CR500Dom, I await your advice with interest. Most automotive pumps are more like agitators than pumps (or am I too old school) so I'm amazed it doesn't pump sufficient quantities. Blownimp, I don't think they use much power, certainly less than a standard pump.
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Dec 19, 2005 18:26:33 GMT
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Ive got lots of turbo impellers hanging around, i wonder if a good water pump could be made from one of those? J edit - I just found this, could be of interest? www.projecttransam.com/projects9.asp
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Last Edit: Dec 19, 2005 18:30:42 GMT by Blown_Imp
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Dec 19, 2005 23:31:37 GMT
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Cheers, Although my engineering knowledge is rusty, i would imagine there is more than x and y involved in cooling in all conditions has Mr B says, but is mechanical so ideal, i don't know. I must admit some of the bad comments had been about these craig david pumps and more good stuff has been associated with these Meziere pumps, not sure if they do em for Rovers though, more research req'd, the saga continues...
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Dec 21, 2005 14:01:28 GMT
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When it comes to the water pump in a cooling system then I think it's about one thing only, 'does it pump the necessary amount of water at the correct time'. 4,000 revs in 5th on a motorway needs less water pumped around(as the rad has more air through it = the water is cooler) than 4,000 revs in 2nd gear on a country lane. In theory a well controlled electric pump should be the ideal.
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Dec 29, 2005 14:02:01 GMT
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Rob
Posted a lot
You know, for kids!
Posts: 2,515
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Dec 29, 2005 15:11:32 GMT
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i was just about to post an interesting conversation going on on the v-8.org.uk site - but its YOU !!! hahaha
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