PhoenixCapri
West Midlands
Posts: 2,684
Club RR Member Number: 91
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Has the Retro Scene changed??PhoenixCapri
@phoenixescort
Club Retro Rides Member 91
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Jul 14, 2009 13:50:34 GMT
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Its all gone a bit, "what is retro?" this one hasn't it! The scene as far as I can tell is slowly migrating to including more modern stuff, simply because the older stuff is going up in value and becoming classic. Not to say those cars aint still retro, but I always get the feeling that the "Retro" scene encompasses those who prefer a car built with skill and interesting idea's rather than money - which means mid 80's into 90's stuff is bound to become more popular. Personally I think some early 90's stuff can be retro, and I have seen plenty of brand new build Mustangs and the like which for me are also retro - its a look afterall, not bounded by how old something is. I think the problem is that some don't quite get what this "look" is, or at least was. I bet with a bit of thought you could make a mk1 Mondeo or even a Rover 400 look retro, but it will take someone skillful, and I think those people are still playing with 70's or 80's stuff. These cars time will come, just not yet. Just my opinion though. For me, Retro is normally (but not exclusively) older than cars I can remember seeing driving around everyday, so as I was born in 1984 that means anything older then about 1988. But if you were born in 1990 (or later) as a lot of the fresh blood in the scene was, then that cut off point might well be 1995! Other thing is that as those who started the scene get older and get more money and less time to spend on they're cars they're more likely to not change there cars, meaning the classic guys have time to accept them, so they end up becoming classic not retro. Plus if you don't have the time, but have the money you might ask someone else to build a car for you, or will buy something thats already done, again I'd say this basically puts the car into classic, not retro. For me there are Retro people, and the cars they build are Retro. If you build a mint RS2000 Escort with some nice wheels and a Cossy engine (alla Classic/Retro Ford every month), I think custom classic, not retro car - but if you built it and are into the retro scene ethos the sum parts might be the same, but I'll bet the end product will be quite different from the normal Ford scene and a lot more interesting/unique. For me Retro = different, if the car is quite like a few others then its classic - and on that basis the year it was made doesn't matter Thinks that might all be a bit off topic though, sorry!
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Jul 14, 2009 14:05:20 GMT
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I'm aware that I'm one of the "invaders" with my lupo, but to be honest this is the only forum I really feel part of, despite not even owning a "proper retro" car. People on here are open minded about marques, engineering things, and generally much more educated than a lot of places. There is such a vareity of tin about and there is 10x more "fresh" stuff to look at every week than on anything else. People on here talk from experience rather than regurgitating what they read last week on the forum.
I do appreciate that the retro scene has changed, even since I first came on here, and agree with Alistair that while everything has potential, not all cars respond to the same mods. Also, the things we thought as "retro" on a not so retro car are now played out and cliched. For example, 3 years ago, matt blacking and slamming a mid 90s hatch would have been genuinely different, but now I cringe every time someone says "matt black it".
I'm coming to RRG09 to look at interesting, different cars. Where people have used initiative, had a go and not done the normal mods. I don't personally regard my Lupo as being particularly outside the box, but when I look on the Lupo forum at the same old stuff being built day after day I realise it does stand out a bit, at least!
I'll come down in the thing, and park it wherever I'm told to. On a stand, behind the bins, down the road out of sight if people want! I'm 100% aware its not what this forum is really about. It's not nostalgic nor is it old. It's weird though.
I think this place is great, and don't really see that any changes have been for the worse, on the whole. Any popular forum will have its share of curse word as well as its share of great stuff. I think the ratio here is by far on the good side.
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Last Edit: Jul 14, 2009 14:09:12 GMT by cobblers
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Jul 14, 2009 14:22:12 GMT
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"everything has potential" is the thing. Not everything achieves its potential. Perhaps this is an issue we created.. Buying a car that could be cool is not the same as doing it. I think there is a fair amount of "I drive an {insert border line car here} and it could be really cool, so therefore it is retro and worthy of discussion",.. but until it is actually interesting, it is just another boring car. I certainly like to see some more Fiat, Triumph, BL, early Ford, Opel etc. action on here. If you look at RSM we talk about Racing Cars pretty much more than anything else... on here, not so much. Maybe that is because of personal interest... but looking through the early Retro Cars things seem to be a bit more Street Machine and Circuit Racer than the sort of things discussed on here now days. Perhaps this discussion isn't "what is retro",.. but more; have we become so fascinated by the Retro fringe and have been ignoring that which made our scene so awesome to begin with.
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Jul 14, 2009 14:41:37 GMT
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The slightly more modern stuff will overtake the older cars, they last longer so there will be more of em as time goes by, 30 years ago a ten year old, 100,000 mile Ford Cortina was usually pretty shagged while a 10 year old, 100,000 mile Mondeo has probably the same again left in it before it has any major issues to deal with.
My Range Rover is 18 years old but for some reason i still see it as modern, even though the basic design is is from the 70's
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jul 14, 2009 14:56:32 GMT
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I dunno that more modern cars will survive in greater numbers - there is greater encouragement to scrap old new cars more than there was to scrap old old cars back in the day. People can only buy old new cars if old new cars survive in any numbers. Any "breaks" on legislation / prospective legislation for classic cars are fixed by HM Government as pre 1/1/1973 which is getting older by the day. I wouldn't fight to keep my Lexus on the road in the same way I would my Oldsmobile...
This is turning into a wider and possibly pointless discussion...
the question is how to focus back on the good stuff?
Do we "ban" the "how do I change a cam belt on a 1997 Renault Clio" type questions? Do we have a rolling cut off for what is retro?
Do we rely on democracy or worry that leaves us open to "the tyranny of the masses"?
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jul 14, 2009 14:59:30 GMT
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the question is how to focus back on the good stuff? I think leading by example is the best way. But rather than have a big splurg of cool stuff over 2 days, maybe spread it out a bit. I've got a bunch of things that we've not used for the linklog on RSM, but I've failed to share... really I should go through and bring some of that out here. Gradual change in atmosphere will help things I think. Interestingly our Readers Rides section is pretty spot on for the spread of cars I'd expect to see at a show (or at the first RCShow) and under discussion here... which is interesting.
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Last Edit: Jul 14, 2009 15:02:05 GMT by HoTWire
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PhoenixCapri
West Midlands
Posts: 2,684
Club RR Member Number: 91
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Has the Retro Scene changed??PhoenixCapri
@phoenixescort
Club Retro Rides Member 91
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Jul 14, 2009 15:24:41 GMT
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I think what might be happening to a certain extent is that the people that always were retro still are, but that there are a lot of fresh faces on the scene who maybe haven't made the full transition to older retro ownership yet for various reasons. Hopefully they will one day. Leaving these things open to democratic vote generally waters down the hole point until nobodies can remeber the point any more. Dictatorship is required a little I'd say just to keep it on track - this forum exists because of an original idea, and it is a place which loves original ideas - so best not to forget that original idea just to keep new people who maybe aren't so interested in that idea happy? If people want somewhere for 90's and later cars that are basically standard except for wheels and lowering maybe there should be an offshoot forum set up for them, the Eurobox/barge forum or some such. Then when cars on there start getting original, patina, rust, pink wheels etc. they are allowed on here. Then when everybody has rust/pink wheels etc. these cars migrate back to a new scene area on they're own forum again. Then here you set a date limit for standard (say 1980), a second for slammage and rims (1990?) and then anything after that has to be different, unique to be allowed in. After all when somebody shows me a Cortina with nothing but rims I think retro. Show me a 1994 Astra estate with rims and I think (well I wont say what I think) but give that same Astra unique features like rust, porsche wheels and beer tap handles for switchs and I think Retro again - different type of Retro, but still Retro. Anyone get what I mean? I think in general everybody on here gets that, even those who don't own Retro cars, but readers rides should have a rule attached to it which only allows cars on which are clearly old enough, or have started having they're potential released. But yeh the number of newer cars on readers rides has died down a bit since the influx of newbies that seemed to come in with the re-release of Retro Cars, so mebbe its just sorting itself out? As for "how do I fix my 1994 Clio", would it be mean to say these threads should be locked and the writter sent a link to Car Mechanics forums? We are a helpful bunch here, but mebbe a bit too helpful on this area cos by helping one modern it says we're happy to help on others. Just a thought.
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Jul 14, 2009 15:33:27 GMT
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well i new to the whole "retro scene" this year! Since 2004 i've been doing the whole Ford only scene! Classic Ford, Fast ford shows etc etc. I never fit in at all, i used to sit there and hear people slagging my cars off not realising they were mine because i was sat away from them but close enough to hear. I never had an XR, RS, ST, Cosworth. I had bottom line, run of the mill stuff. I always tried to make em different, tried to be different no matter what people thought although it did kinda get ya down hearing crappy comments. At the moment i feel this new found retro scene is far far far better because people are open minded! I've found my self becoming open minded. I know u don't see my cars as Retro, a 1988 and 1990. But as said before i don't think retro is an age thing. It's about being new, in an old way, and different. The Ford scene hasnt change a button in 5 years, and it's REALLY boring same cars year in year out. Nothing really new or different! I totally enjoyed the retro show cause u didnt see the same thing twice! Modded, Stock, Old, New(ish), Classic etc etc etc!
So change is good, as long as things are different and interesting. It's all good!
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tri
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,572
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Jul 14, 2009 15:50:36 GMT
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The 'retro scene' has changed, yes. Of course it's changed because the whole point in the 'retro scene' to me has always seemed to be that different is good. If it had stayed the same, it wouldn't be so interesting and fresh feeling all the time.. we'd be as bad as the OSF crew or certain factions of the VW scene, where if you don't do it the same as everyone else - you don't fit in.
Seems more that with the "retro scene" that if you're the same as everyone else, you don't fit in - rather than the other way round.. which is why I've never stayed part of a certain 'car crowd' for as long as I have here.
I get bored very easily.
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Last Edit: Jul 14, 2009 15:55:02 GMT by tri
I forgot how to retro...
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Has the Retro Scene changed??Robinxr4i
@robinxr4i
Club Retro Rides Member 143
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Jul 14, 2009 15:53:24 GMT
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well I new to the whole "retro scene" this year! Since 2004 i've been doing the whole Ford only scene! Classic Ford, Fast ford shows etc etc. I never fit in at all, I used to sit there and hear people slagging my cars off not realising they were mine because I was sat away from them but close enough to hear. I never had an XR, RS, ST, Cosworth. I had bottom line, run of the mill stuff. I always tried to make em different, tried to be different no matter what people thought although it did kinda get ya down hearing crappy comments. At the moment I feel this new found retro scene is far far far better because people are open minded! I've found my self becoming open minded. I know u don't see my cars as Retro, a 1988 and 1990. But as said before I don't think retro is an age thing. It's about being new, in an old way, and different. The Ford scene hasnt change a button in 5 years, and it's REALLY boring same cars year in year out. Nothing really new or different! I totally enjoyed the retro show cause u didnt see the same thing twice! Modded, Stock, Old, New(ish), Classic etc etc etc! So change is good, as long as things are different and interesting. It's all good! I echo this completely, I was a few years back Ford and Ford only. RR has opened my eyes to enjoying all type and kinds of cars and styles. Without being too "I'm a RR bummer" this is a truely great forum, nothing comes close interms of content, diversity, people, attitude, knowledge and busyness. The Ford scene as with many other scene has become stale, there is only a finite amount of time that you can see a Series 1 Escort RS Turbo on compomotive MO's or a Nimbus grey mk1 Golf on R10 Turbo's. They don't move on, yes new models come out and yes they get modified, but usually they just get a "nice" set of wheels and tidy body work. I went to a local car show recently were some guys from a club called Obviously Ford came over to my Sierra shock their heads and walked off I enjoy the abuse about my car, but I also find it sad that the Ford scene can be very closed. Even though what I've done is not original or different really, it's been done before many times! I'm not a beautiful or unique snow flake, I'm the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
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Sierra - here we go again! He has an illness, it's not his fault.
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Jul 14, 2009 15:57:50 GMT
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I think the biggest change isn't necessarily the ages of cars, it's the shift from old standard cars (mainly the unloved stuff) and race inspired cars to "building cars by numbers", which makes me vomit. But then it would, because I like the race inspired stuff best, and drive stuff which is old and fairly standard. With race-inspired touches. ;D Give a 1994 Astra estate "unique features like rust, porsche wheels and beer tap handles for switches" and I'd say it's a lazy attempt to create an "interesting car" by applying a formula. Which is where things are going wrong in certain circles. It would also look like septic tank contents IMHO. Stick a 1994 Astra on coilovers, 15 - 17" rims, sticky tyres, fit a Cavalier SRi 130 engine in and go find a track day - that's my idea of cool. I don't think either of those Astras are particularly retro - but both could, at the moment, find a home on here. OK, I don't know what I'm talking about and probably fail with a capital F. Whatever. Please everyone, think for yourselves and the world will be a richer place. That is all.
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My fleet: Suzuki GSX-R600Y SRAD with bald, melted tyres A borrowed Mondeo
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Jul 14, 2009 16:29:05 GMT
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II went to a local car show recently were some guys from a club called Obviously Ford came over to my Sierra shock their heads and walked off I used to get that a lot with my old Sierra Chasseur because i'd chromed and detailed the engine bay.... on a CVH! I haven't done the same to my saff, But i still get the same response purely because a Diesel engine is sitting there! But that diesel is what makes the car great to me, and unique. What i also ment to add to my last post. Regarding wheels and "Slamage". Yeah it looks good, but not everyone can or wants to do that regardless of their cars age. My fiesta is down 40mm on Either it's 13inch KA alloys or XR2 steelies. It's still very practrical. My saff will always (for the foreseable future) roll it's standard 14 inch ghia rims! It might get lowered, but not much. It's used and abused, needs to be VERY practical! Would this mean that even in 10 years time they still wouldnt be "as" retro?
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Jul 14, 2009 16:31:44 GMT
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I'd say the scene has changed but thats because things have to evolve to stop the rot setting in.
It's a time thing when i was a young lad walking back from school a guy had 3 of those orange Fiats in the 1st picture, i loved them then but they probably weren't that old, however since he moved i've never seen another on the road, only at shows.
On the time theory, it's also an age thing and always will be. What i mean is i was born in 81, the newest car i've owned is my current Volvo 340 which is an 89, but thats still 20yrs old, it looks square and boxy and to the average man on the street it's an old wreck, but to the youinger contingent on here it's retro- to the older ,lot it seems its barely acceptible?
Simple fact i like all cars, and i generally like older cars but i don't like the way people feel the need to label or "fit in" to a certain style of car/modification.
On a side note if you look up the deffinition of Retro online all them say the same thing:
Retro = modelled on something from past: modelled on something from the past such as a style of fashion or music
Retro= Involving, relating to, or reminiscent of things past
So does that mean none of us actually have retro cars unless we drive a new Fiat 500 or new Mini, or Beetle etc?
Our cars aren't modelled on something from the past, nor are they reminisant of it, they are from the past?
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OAP drifta Volvo 340,Williams power 1960 Beetle twin 40's 1776cc
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Jul 14, 2009 16:33:22 GMT
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Would this mean that even in 10 years time they still wouldnt be "as" retro? I think this is another point that needs a bit of clearing up ... Retro is NOT "Slam + Wheels" .. although it is a useful short cut for many a good looking car. But it is also not really completely stock common cars (but it might be completely stock uncommon cars)... I believe the original Retro Cars magazine tag line sums it up : Retro Cars, because everything else is just classic ...
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Jul 14, 2009 16:43:05 GMT
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If people want somewhere for 90's and later cars that are basically standard except for wheels and lowering maybe there should be an offshoot forum set up for them, the Eurobox/barge forum or some such. Then when cars on there start getting original, patina, rust, pink wheels etc. they are allowed on here. Then when everybody has rust/pink wheels etc. these cars migrate back to a new scene area on they're own forum again. Then here you set a date limit for standard (say 1980), a second for slammage and rims (1990?) and then anything after that has to be different, unique to be allowed in. . That's Elitism, pure and simple. The day this place adopts 'entry criteria' is the day I press the 'Delete Account' button. Just my £0.02.
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Jul 14, 2009 16:46:04 GMT
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That's Elitism, pure and simple. The day this place adopts 'entry criteria' is the day I press the 'Delete Account' button. Indeed! That won't be happening.
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Jul 14, 2009 16:46:26 GMT
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Agree there Brian
This threads a bit doom and gloom don't ya think?
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Jul 14, 2009 16:48:56 GMT
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This threads a bit doom and gloom don't ya think? Not really,.. it is interesting that thoughts that have been swimming round my head are not alone.. better to have them out there so we can find a positive way forwards. I'd like think that we can facilitate a slight shift in balance back towards some older cars, without alienating the fresh guys joining the scene. Kind of reminding ourselves what was great about this scene to start with
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jul 14, 2009 16:59:10 GMT
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I think leading by example is good, I also think the forum keeping an open mind is admirable.
We have to accept that not only will the scene change in terms of trends and fashions but it will also be affected by the general economies of the car world. We all know that if you walk around your average housing estate cars have generally got newer, it's no surprise it's trickled down to our niche.
Anyway, I for one am saving my pennies to do as HotWire said we should a long time ago. I'm going commit some hard earned to something old and ridiculous and support those little guys out there by employing their services and purchasing their products. I'm then going to wheel the end result around shows in the hope of inspiring others to do the same.
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Jul 14, 2009 17:08:40 GMT
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One thing I feel from this thread is optimism. There are not many Forums, or Scenes/groups of people whatever, that can be engaged in such debate without getting rude, insulting, resorting to more smilies than text. Just look at the length of these posts, there are people who really care about this stuff. I think we all need to embrace variety and respect different tastes and budgets. There is room for all. My youngest retro is now 37 years old but I am glad that there is a Lupo driver on here because it makes for diversity. Peoples sense of individuality is as important as age of car. I think naturally the scene will evolve. The right people, with the right attitude will feel comfortable on RR, and at retro shows, whereas those people who don't really get 'retro' will drift away. As the scene grows, and member numbers on here grow, maybe we will need to split out more topics into separate sections, so people can navigate to what interests them more easily. If people want to discuss younger stuff, for tech advice or whatever, let's just create a separate area. It is important that older members don't exclude people for being into newer stuff, otherwise we are in danger of becoming scene snobs, akin to some classic car clubs. I don't think a Mk2 Mondeo will ever rock as hard as my Toledo but the fact that people feel differently makes it all colourful.
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