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snappin' necks and cashin' cheques
Posts: 84
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Jun 22, 2009 19:39:34 GMT
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Hello peeps!
I'm wanting to get cracking with the front wings to replace my crusty ones on the Merc.
I've read about you guys using both Zinc primer and Red Oxide which both seem to have rust inhibiting abilities. But which one is better, or are they used for different things? I took a look in Halfords today but it didn't really tell me much.
I've also heard about Epoxy Red Oxide, if I'm going for Red Oxide is this the one to get?
I was planning to coat the insides of the wings in whichever you guys recommend too, then give that a coating of underseal too.
Again, any recommendations on underseal?
I'm not after the best and most expensive stuff, just the one that represents best value for money.
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Feelin' high as hell, flyin' through Palmdale, skatin' on Dayton rims
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Jun 22, 2009 19:47:29 GMT
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I go for bilt hamber electrox, it's a zinc primmer that always seems to score very highly in product tests. Not looked at red oxide for years.
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Jun 22, 2009 20:17:53 GMT
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I have the same problem, but not only which one to use but can they both be painted onto bare steel like it says on the zinc tin or do I have to use etch primer
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smile
Part of things
snappin' necks and cashin' cheques
Posts: 84
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Jun 22, 2009 20:38:40 GMT
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I have the same problem, but not only which one to use but can they both be painted onto bare steel like it says on the zinc tin or do I have to use etch primer Good question, I need to know that too! When I was reading the prep instructions on the Halfords Zinc Primer it was suggesting spraying the Zinc Primer OVER Filler Primer. Is that right? In my head that seems like it defeats the whole purpose of having Zinc in the Primer if it's not touching the metal... I've just been reading up on that Bilt Hamber Electrox stuff too. A few people on another forum reported issues with it bonding and had flaked off taking the paint with it! I've just found some stuff called POR-15 which I'm pretty sure has been mentioned on this forum before. I'm almost hoping you guys don't recommend this stuff because it's a little on the pricey side!
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Feelin' high as hell, flyin' through Palmdale, skatin' on Dayton rims
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Jun 22, 2009 21:16:33 GMT
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POR-15's thick gloopy stuff, not pretty unless sprayed maybe. Dries rock hard. Not something you'd use as a primer under topside exterior bodywork. It also likes (needs) very rough surfaces, and goes over rust etc. Flakes off shiney surfaces.
edit Don't understand the filler-primer thing, that's meant to go over a base primer. Filler primer or high-build primer is to take out the last waves/score marks etc, not a primer you apply to bare metal, it's not designed to stick to it.
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'66 Amazon <-> '94 LS400 <-> '86 Suzuki 1135 EFE
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purplevanman
Posted a lot
Way too orangey for crows
Posts: 3,830
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Jun 22, 2009 21:27:54 GMT
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I was about to order a 5l can of the Bilt hamber stuff!! I currently use red oxide from a steel building company, wouldn't buy a rattle can as it is too thin. The por stuff is supposed to be the bee knees for chassis protection..
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Welder, fabricator, general resto work
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smile
Part of things
snappin' necks and cashin' cheques
Posts: 84
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Jun 22, 2009 23:06:07 GMT
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I was about to order a 5l can of the Bilt hamber stuff!! To be honest I wouldn't let what I read stop you, everything I've read after that has said it's good shiz. I tell you what though, this whole thing is a friggin minefield! The internet has made it waaaaaaay more complicated than it needed to be. After finding some stuff called Isopon Zinc 182 which a lot of people appear to be saying is awesome and also happens to be around my kind of price range...... I NOW read that putting Zinc Primer onto bare metal is utter lunacy and you need Etch Primer to bond to the metal! OK, makes sense I think... so I look for some Etch Primer with Zinc in it, and find nothing! I thought the whole point of this Zinc is that it touches the bare metal and acts as a 'sacrificial anode' by rusting first before the metal due to being more reactive? Can someone on here give me their 2p because I've been reading all night and it's taken me round in one big ass circle. I'm pretty lost on underseal too. Apparently Oil based underseal is no good, Schultz is as good as salt water and I want something like Stonechip instead. I'm trying to avoid any 2 pack stuff though. ....and they say the internet is full of lies!
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Feelin' high as hell, flyin' through Palmdale, skatin' on Dayton rims
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,240
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Zinc Primer VS Red OxideChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Etch AFAIK does have some zinc in it . Out of the primers I have used it's the least rust resistant. It sticks pretty well to bodywork too when sanding unlike zinc primer. And yes, Etch is needed for bare paintwork unless you get something like Hammerite Stonechip etc. where they are designed to go straight onto bare metal. To be honest, if you are trying to waterproof, you may as well slap a topcoat on, even if it isn't super tidy! It still seals the bodywork off . Schutz is good, but you need for your panels to be spotless when its applied otherwise yes it can make things worse. On my MGB castle section on a car I just sold it was the business on that! Waxoyl is the old faithful I find though in a number of instances. Schutz does form a nice rubbery surface though, perfect to bounce of all those stones that hammer your sills to bits.
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I did my whole midget shell in bilt hamber and none of it has come off, like any paint including etch primer if it goes on in coats that are too heavy it will form a skin and peel off, Electrox also uses a special thinner due the the chemical reaction needed to bond and altering this by using celly thinners etc will disrupt this process. The bilt hamber stuff needs to be on bare metal or it won't bond or heal and should stick to any surface prepared with 180 grit or lower. Shutz stone chip needs to go on over a primmer, I've never used any of the por range so can't comment however I'll never use hammerite , or any of the softer underseal type body sprays again.
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etch primers have have their acid content reduced over recent years and its the acid which does the etching. Only people who sell etch primers still recomend using them... Red oxide (aka red lead) is also not what it once was, they have taken all the lead out of it for a start. For shame. epoxy primers with a decent mechanical key are FTW really. Unlike most other primers you can apply filler or polyester spray build over the top with no adhesion problems. I personally don't like POR15 products. Expensive and I have found them to be difficult to use and on occasion ineffective. That would probably be due to my incorrect application perhaps? But that goes back to them being difficult to use. They are also broadly chemically incompatible with every other paint on the market. Underneath the car I use Eastwood's harsh environment rust encapsulating Primer or Hammerite Rust Preventing Primer (aka Finegan's number one), build up a few coats of that and then finish off with any of the Chassis Black products out there. I do not rate Hammerite for this use as it seems to crack and flake on vehicle chassis more than other paints and this is (I am told) due to it being a traditional enamel which is inflexible. For the car body I have used etch primer on bare steel, and prepped existing substrate elsewhere and then just built up with a quality 2K primer from there. On my next project I will use expoxy on bare steel and previous substrate and then apply a 2K primer on that, topped with a sealer. I will be looking at the Bilt Hammer stuff for the chassis/floor though in future. I hear a lot of good things. Can't ALL be hype.... Zinc, etch and red oxide are kinda "old tech" now. those black gloop spray underseals are the work of the devil.
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Last Edit: Jun 23, 2009 7:20:34 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Zinc, etch and red oxide are kinda "old tech" now. those black gloop spray underseals are the work of the devil. Amen to that.
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I've used por-15 for my engine bay after sand blasting and it has gone on well, also on the interior floors and behind the dash/bulkhead.
As was said above I wouldn't use it any where that will be vissible from outside, but I havnt had any issues with it yet, you need a specefic primer to go over it if you want to top coat. As mine will be covered, and the ngine bay staying black, It doesnt really bother me!
I do however need to know what primer i should be using on the exterior?
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wanted, 25th hour. Required daily, cash waiting
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As long as the surface is as rust free and clean, well prepared etc as posible any etch will be fine. I still used electrox on mine as it can be sprayed in fine coats and is compatable with almost all types of paint.
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POR-15's thick gloopy stuff, not pretty unless sprayed maybe. Dries rock hard. Not something you'd use as a primer under topside exterior bodywork. It also likes (needs) very rough surfaces, and goes over rust etc. Flakes off shiney surfaces. its always gone on very nice for me..almost flows out like its sprayed when you get it right , thin coats are the way to get good results with por15
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Jun 23, 2009 20:55:46 GMT
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I allways thought zinc or weld through primer was used so you didn't have to weld bare steel and the inside of a lap joint would be sealed by the zinc paint and not bare to start rusting after the seam was sealed? Red oxid is to seal bare metal and is waterproof (unlike normal grey primer) but not suitably to weld through and has to be removed before you can weld ? That's how i use it anyway, i clean the bit to be welded , zinc paint it, weld it then red oxide the lot before seam sealing and finishing.
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R.I.P photobucket
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smile
Part of things
snappin' necks and cashin' cheques
Posts: 84
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Jun 24, 2009 13:49:49 GMT
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Underneath the car I use Eastwood's harsh environment rust encapsulating Primer or Hammerite Rust Preventing Primer (aka Finegan's number one), I'm suprised at that, in one forum I read, pactical classics magazine did an article testing underseals and Eastwoods encapsulator came last! Check it out here: www.volkszone.com/VZi/showpost.php?p=3223713&postcount=5Awesome info there, thanks man! So to clarify... Etch Primer isn't 100% necessary and these days probably isn't worth it. As long as the surface is roughed up good enough I should be ok spraying onto bare metal/filler. Red Oxide is for the old boys. Epoxy Primers are the shiznit, although not much good for me personally as I want to try and avoid 2 pack stuff due to my retardedness. POR15 is great stuff but expensive and an involved process to get it applied right. Chassis Black, which I'm guessing is the same as Stonechip is easier to work with and generally as effective as regular underseal. Can someone throw some brand names out there for Chassis Black/Stonechip paints and then these gloopy underseals I should be avoiding. I can't really tell the difference, for example are Schutz and Waxoyl the gloopy products?? Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of that before I make a horrible mistake.... although from what I've already read on the internet, opinions differ drastically on this subject. Thanks for everybodys advice on this, it's finally starting to make some sense!
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Feelin' high as hell, flyin' through Palmdale, skatin' on Dayton rims
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Jun 24, 2009 14:14:15 GMT
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Don't believe everything you read on the internet (even this!) or the comics. If someone who's done a few says it's OK, it's OK.
Etch primer, depends. Needed for ally. Need some sort of primer anyway over steel. Some etch is supposed to take care of very minor rust spots isn't it? i.e. tiny spots in pits - not surface etc? Not sure about this, don't use it. If true it's one advantage.
Chassis black is a gloss black, goes over primers, trad sort of finish. It's paint, not stonechip in other words.
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'66 Amazon <-> '94 LS400 <-> '86 Suzuki 1135 EFE
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Jun 24, 2009 14:43:43 GMT
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WTF? I typed out a big reply but when I pressed "post" I got taken back to the main page???
Anyway...
The point of primers is that they should be porous. The best adhesion of subsequent coats comes when there is a chemical bond between the primer and the paints on top of it. A you don't go wet on wet onto primer (not if you are sanding it) then it needs to be porous. If its porous it will take on salt water in a test where its left 3 weeks outside and soaked in saline!
I thin the Eastwood primer before application, either by brush or spray. I will be looking at the Bilt Hamber for chassis & floor once my shelf stock of the Eastwood is used up.
You can't buy red oxide any more, not proper red oxide.
I don't rate the POR15 stuff.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jun 24, 2009 15:07:37 GMT
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I'm confused and worried now I have been doing my car for ages, I removed all the paint and rust back to bare steel Then I painted it with zinc 182 rust primer as my main concern is to try and slow down the rusting process these are old pictures and I have now done most of the front of the car.Have I done it wrong, should I have used etch primer first. Should I strip all the paint off and repaint again with etch primer.I know it will take a long time but I don't want the paint coming off
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Jun 24, 2009 18:55:18 GMT
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I have a Ford, so need to get this rust prevention right, can you put bilt hamber electrox primer direct on to rust, or do you have to use the hydrate 80 first?
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