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Jun 30, 2008 21:26:29 GMT
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Can-bus is no more of a ball ache than any other new tech, remember a few years ago when E.C.Us first started getting used and people were heralding the end of tuning because of everything being a "sealed box" now look at whats happening with aftermarket E.C.Us and throttle bodies etc becoming more common than a brace of webbers and a new set of points!
At the end of the day time is money, compare the amount of time it takes to do a full service on a late model car with hydraulic tappets, electronic ignition and full disc brakes etc over something older with adjustable tappets, points, grease nipples and drum brakes, not to mention king pins, lever arm dampers and other oddities that most techs are unfamiliar with.
In my experiance as a main dealer tech for the last 17 years there are still a lot of really good techs out there but for every one that is willing to go the extra mile or even do what is expected of them to a high standard there are another four that are just there to keep their head down and their hand out.
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Jun 30, 2008 21:35:08 GMT
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:)I don't claim to be perfect, but threads like this make me quite proud of what we do at the garage I run. In the last fortnight we've had in our workshops a 1990 Bently Turbo R, several classic Skodas that aren't mine, an Australian spec 60's VW Combi, a W123 Merc, a Triumph Vitesse, and a 1965 Oldsmobile Tornado. We've also had countless 90's and noughties family hacks, and several very late cars in. I've been trying for the last year [at very nearly the cost of my marriage] to build up what was a dead garage and am pleased to say it's doing well. I have not yet turned a single job away. To be honest there have been some jobs I pobably should have turned away! Sorry if this sounds like an advert, but reading this thread made me realise that what I do isn't quite normal! ;D Dave you should be rightly proud of your set up, going from a few local bods + the minicabs to having a good 'retro reputation' in a year is good going, and the regular feed from RetroCustom means you're doing something right. (Though I hope you've got someone in cleaning the bog now! Yikes!!!)
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Jun 30, 2008 22:02:53 GMT
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Can-bus is no more of a ball ache than any other new tech... <snip> I don't agree. It (in some applications) over-complicates things that don't need to be complicated and stops anyone other than main dealer doing work on the car. Take a popular fleet car as an example... VX Vectra. How many of these get fitted with aftermarket towbars? Thousands. Come to wire one up these days and you have to faff about with the wiring when it should be the simplest job in the world. [/rant]
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1984 Mk2 Fiesta XR2 - Stored 1990 XR3i SE500 Cabrio - Project 1990 Mk4 Escort estate 1.3L - Daily drive/For Sale
...more to follow!
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Jun 30, 2008 22:29:12 GMT
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One thing that really bothers me about people mis conceptions of modern cars is that we just plug the computer in and it tells us what is wrong. If that was the case i'd be out of a job by now and some 16 year old school leaver would be on £5 an hour as a diagnostic tech.
A computer only tells you what it sees. It's a tool, just like a spanner or a screwdriver. Anyone can use one but without skill and experience you wont achieve very much.
Most garages wont touch older cars because they know they'll only loose money. You wouldnt take a gramaphone into currys to get it repaired so why would you take a moggy minor into quick fit.
The motor trade has got a bad reputation and that is mainly because in the past, cars have been relativley simple to work on and that made it easier for any half assed diy merchant to think he was a mechanic and start ripping people off and bodging jobs left right and center. With all the newer technology on cars it makes it harder for the backstreet guys to work on them. This is a bit of a double edged sword because while it stops the cowboys getting inside your ecu and turning off your ABS to put the light out it also prevents the good honest mechanics from making a living without investing a lot of money in diagnostic equipment, not to mention the training that goes with it. I cant remember the last time i used a set of feeler gauges or a timing light at work, i don't even keep them in my toolbox. If someone came in and wanted their points or tappets set i'd have to turn them away or tell them to come down the workshop. I think thats the point i'm trying to make. If you want a normal car repaired take it to a garage, if you want a specialist car repaired take it to an enthusiast.
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Jun 30, 2008 22:36:49 GMT
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Take a popular fleet car as an example... VX Vectra. How many of these get fitted with aftermarket towbars? Thousands. Come to wire one up these days and you have to faff about with the wiring when it should be the simplest job in the world. [/rant] I once sat and watched a mobile towbar fitter spend two days trying to work out how to wire up a tow bar on a new vito. If he had come over and asked me i could have told him how to do it in 10 minutes with the right box from mercs but he was specialist and had obviously been trained in his field of expertise. ;D
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Jun 30, 2008 23:00:48 GMT
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I once sat and watched a mobile towbar fitter spend two days trying to work out how to wire up a tow bar on a new vito. If he had come over and asked me I could have told him how to do it in 10 minutes with the right box from mercs but he was specialist and had obviously been trained in his field of expertise. ;D ...and that's my point. He shouldn't need "the right box from Merc"...
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1984 Mk2 Fiesta XR2 - Stored 1990 XR3i SE500 Cabrio - Project 1990 Mk4 Escort estate 1.3L - Daily drive/For Sale
...more to follow!
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Jun 30, 2008 23:20:18 GMT
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alot of the cars that come in through my door are ones that other garages have turned away. I think it just comes down to business. Some guys are only interested in turning up, doing their nine to five gettin paid and going home again. As a garage owner myself i can see why they are like that but i assume that the guys that are like that just arent enthusiasts themselves. I am on the other hand so working on everyday stuff bores the life out of me. Give me some 25 year old electrics, carbs, points and condensors any day of the week! :-p
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bbq
Part of things
(. )( .)
Posts: 485
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Jun 30, 2008 23:53:49 GMT
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Canbus is dumb, badly designed, badly progammed and just downright nasty. In fact, it's almost as nasty as French electronics.
There. I said it. Something is worse than a modern French car.
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2003 Suzuki Wagon R+. Feel the POWAAARRRR!!! 1968 Volvo 142. My street/strip car. Currently fubarred, it will run one day. 1971 Volvo 142. Parts car. Stripped and gone. 1993 Nissan Sunny diesel. Runs on cooking oil! [/UR
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rtlkyuubi
Posted a lot
Low and Slow
Posts: 2,922
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can bus is a load of curse word tbh, just to get rid of a few wires, but yet you need an ecu in everything instead so dunno how thats supposed to cut back on anything? Ive just finished my college course, lvl 3 nvq motor mechanics. and all they teach you is how to remove and replace, we did a little on adjust tappets, alot on working out how to find electrical faults with a multimeter then the rest is fitters work :/ [shameless plug] Any garages wanting staff around the sheffield area? ill even be a tea boy if I have to ;D [/shameless plug] Ryan Ryan.
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Can-bus is no more of a ball ache than any other new tech... <snip> I don't agree. It (in some applications) over-complicates things that don't need to be complicated and stops anyone other than main dealer doing work on the car. Take a popular fleet car as an example... VX Vectra. How many of these get fitted with aftermarket towbars? Thousands. Come to wire one up these days and you have to faff about with the wiring when it should be the simplest job in the world. [/rant] Then my argument about that is the aftermarket need to get with the times and supply "plug and play" tow bar kits! All I'm saying is it's a shift in technolagy which happens every now and then, it's not worse, just different and we'll all get used to it eventualy then something else will change and we can moan about that instead The simpilest solution for everybody would be for the fleet managers to spec towbars from the factory or fit genuine parts but obviously that's not the cheepest solution so they don't
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^ A very good overview But my original point was NOT actually complaining about workmanship in the motor trade - in fact said persons have admiration for them. Also whilst you give reasons for not wanting to work on old cars you will see they also didn't want to work on a neighbours newish Mitsubushi EVO; hence my post of what exactly do 'the trade' want to work on these days!
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mercmad
Posted a lot
Flush Hard,it's a long way to McDonalds.
Posts: 1,740
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The Newest vehicles I work on are all built before 1980. I flatly refuse to touch later stuff because I don't need to . I do understand why dealers and most garages won't touch older cars. It boils down to a couple of things, 1/ Parts availability and the cost of parts. 2/ Owners of older cars tend to be unable to afford proper maintenance. Now to expand a bit, the cost of parts for older cars is a problem for older car owners especially the type I specialise in ( Mercedes M100's) a new fuel injection pump is $48,000. Injectors are $4000 each and then there is the problem of knowing how to tune an engine with twin points and mechanical fuel injection. it can take a day to set up an injection so the engine starts and idles properly. Parts for these cars are available from Daimler AG Direct but many garages here have no access to trade discount on parts and supply so a car can sit for weeks while a wholesaler attempts to track parts for them. Hassling on the phone trying to track parts for older car eats into profit making time,something that must be considered when rent,wages etc have to be taken into account. One example is a Mercedes I have here at the moment. The owner took it to an ordinary garage to get the power windows serviced. The garage removed the regulators,then lost them... New ones are available without the motors so the garage was in big trouble. Wreckers don't even carry the parts anymore . I have had to make up new ones from later model Mercedes and this involved a few wiring mods with relays to make them work. This is something a regular garage won't even consider. Many mechanics have never even heard of a M-100 engine and the sight of these monsters brings on much sucking of teeth... . I also rebuild the suspensions and trans etc. I don't know any younger mechanics who know what a reamer looks like or even how to ream king pin bores to allow .0005 clearance. When working on Holdens,Falcons,etc a garage can turn over a engine change in 4 hours . They don't even rebuild the engines,that is highly uneconomic and a new engine is just a phone call away . Same goes for trans and diffs. ..and to say a bit about number 2/ . there is nothing worse that someone fronting up with as worn out bomb who needs to get it roadworthy or even just running and then they try to get a quicky cheap job done. 5 will get you 10 they have no money and will attempt to run out on the bill. I avoid fools like that . If a garage cannot do a service on late model Mitsubishi,avoid them. If they don't know how to do a service on a car with points,tappet gaps and so on avoid them too. Both instances mean they have no idea how to maintain an engine( not really all hard once you understand a few basics,such as" all engines are the same,they just look different" ) .
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Many years ago I changed my driving style to cope with rising fuel prices; I have now reached the stage where I am contemplating keeping my eyes shut in order to lower wind resistance.
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I've got a couple of places that don't mind doing the older stuff.... but the newer stuff brings the money in. They had to upgrade their fault code reader not long back as they were turning away too much work, and now it's all just reading fault codes, fitting parts. But it's the money they need to keep going.
They're pretty upfront about it though, and if anything is alien to them they'll admit that it'll take them a while to diagnose which is going to add to labour costs, as they could be using that time to work on a 90's eurobox - fair point. As such i'll either diag as much as i can myself, or i'll even take the car down there, and look over it with them, show them what it's going, and try and cut down on their headache.
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Never trust a man Who names himself Trevor. Or one day you might find He's not a real drug dealer.
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Now to expand a bit, the cost of parts for older cars is a problem for older car owners especially the type I specialise in ( Mercedes M100's) a new fuel injection pump is $48,000. Injectors are $4000 each and then there is the problem of knowing how to tune an engine with twin points and mechanical fuel injection. it can take a day to set up an injection so the engine starts and idles properly. "That sounds like a lot" thought I, "I wonder what that is in Pounds Sterling?" £22,938 for an injection pump and £1911 for an injector What are they made out of?!
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1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary.
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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^^^^^^^^^^^ Just what I was thinking too! Large profit margins perhaps?
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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Good answers from revdickdeluxe. All I know is my mechanic who's great and old skool, has got annoyed with people quibbling prices and costs, as they can do their own price checking online They don't understand the time it takes to do work, the skill, to do it right, and getting parts fast. time shopping around is at your mechanics hourly rate! So I'm happy with my mechanic, people think I'm mad spending £500 on my MOT but I tell ya what, my new brakes work mint! unfortuanately my mechanic is giving up on it all for a bit to do his own projects, so I'd better get a bit better with a spanner!
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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miaspa
Part of things
Posts: 829
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Miaspa - I don't suppose you could do me a favour and find out the name of the qualification this guy is going to do? (I'm thinking about retraining too, but the only courses my local colleges offer seem far too basic.) He got exempted from his NVQ level 1, if that means anything to you doesn't to me.
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Found my flashing Pao again.
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But my original point was NOT actually complaining about workmanship in the motor trade - in fact said persons have admiration for them. Also whilst you give reasons for not wanting to work on old cars you will see they also didn't want to work on a neighbours newish Mitsubushi EVO; hence my post of what exactly do 'the trade' want to work on these days! I think the only reason for not wanting to service the evo is lack of faith in either their own or their staffs ability. I know theirs people in my company who i wouldnt let near something like that. Things can go wrong with even the simplest of jobs. One of my collegues once did a service on a fiesta and had a bit of broken spark plug go down the bore. He didnt realise till he started it up and by then the engine was scrap. With an old fiesta you can go down the breakers and get another engine for a couple of hundred, it'd be a bit of a different story on an Evo. I think thats pretty much what 'the trade' wants to do these days, bland mass produced euro boxes with good parts supply and predictable faults. I hope you do have feeler gauges at work - what about spark plugs! I'm a diesel fitter Although on the rare occasions that i do work on a petrol most of them have multi electrode or platinum tipped plugs so feeler gauges wouldnt be much use anyway.
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Now to expand a bit, the cost of parts for older cars is a problem for older car owners especially the type I specialise in ( Mercedes M100's) a new fuel injection pump is $48,000. Injectors are $4000 each and then there is the problem of knowing how to tune an engine with twin points and mechanical fuel injection. it can take a day to set up an injection so the engine starts and idles properly. "That sounds like a lot" thought I, "I wonder what that is in Pounds Sterling?" £22,938 for an injection pump and £1911 for an injector What are they made out of?! If mercs current quality control is anything to go by, probably cheese ;D
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