cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,619
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Mar 18, 2024 21:38:50 GMT
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After a couple of months of not moving and with the nice weather on the horizon I told my Dad we should get his Spitfire out of the garage. He had moved it around Christmas but now It has no clutch at all. The pedal moves when you press it and returns up but has no pressure or resistance... its like just pressing a clutch that isn't connected to anything.
The Spitfire clutch is Hydraulic so instantly guessed its the slave cylinder thats done for as the master still has full reservoir of fluid, but then if its leaking surely we would see a low master reservoir? I've only messed with cable clutches so looking for advice.
symptoms are:
- floppy clutch pedal
- You can start the car and put it in any gear but it doesnt do anything
- Gear stick feels normal.
- No visible leaks + full master cylinder
A lot of people on the facebook Spitfire group said its either a stuck clutch or a slave cylinder and its leaking into the bell housing. Thats not an old unit nor is the braided hose that goes to it, not to say it cant fail.
Is it possible for a clutch to stick in neutral though?? and how would you free is off?
Hers a video of the Master Cylinder with the Cap off... Should the fluid be moving if my Dad is pressing it? (like in the vid) or would it not move if the slave is seized?
Can't See anything at the Slave
Heres my Dad putting it into first gear and not going anywhere
Just trying to figure out how to go about sorting this out as the garage its in we can't roll it back in once its out due to a ramp. Once its out its out ha!
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Mar 18, 2024 22:56:41 GMT
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if the clutch wasn’t working you wouldn’t be able to out in gear with the engine running sounds like the clutch is jammed so it’s allowing you to put it in gear so the pressure plate hasn’t released
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Mar 18, 2024 23:08:46 GMT
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I suspect the release arm pivot in the bellhousing has seized, so after the first push of the pedal the clutch arm has kept the clutch activated and now the slave is just taking up the slack when you press the pedal.
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'57 Austin Cambridge A55 1800 Overdrive
'50 MG Y-type (In build)
'56 Standard Super 10 (In build)
'04 Seat Leon TDi 130 (Wet weather runabout)
'03 Citroen Berlingo HDi (Parts hauler)
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Mar 18, 2024 23:37:21 GMT
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I suspect the release arm pivot in the bellhousing has seized, so after the first push of the pedal the clutch arm has kept the clutch activated and now the slave is just taking up the slack when you press the pedal. Yes it's either mechanical as said clutch arm seized or hydraulic, in that the first push of the pedal has moved the piston in the master, and it has seized in the bore keeping it pressurized. Loosening one of the pipe fittings should prove that. Edit: Or the flexible has failed and is acting like a one way valve. |
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Last Edit: Mar 18, 2024 23:39:25 GMT by colnerov
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,619
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If its the pressure plate stuck, whats the best way to free it off? I've seen a lot of people talking about reving up in gear and pressing the brakes but this seems to be when its stuck in gear right? I suspect the release arm pivot in the bellhousing has seized, so after the first push of the pedal the clutch arm has kept the clutch activated and now the slave is just taking up the slack when you press the pedal. Yes it's either mechanical as said clutch arm seized or hydraulic, in that the first push of the pedal has moved the piston in the master, and it has seized in the bore keeping it pressurized. Loosening one of the pipe fittings should prove that. Edit: Or the flexible has failed and is acting like a one way valve. If we crack off the hose at the master and pump the pedal I guess were just looking for it to shoot fluid out and if not its seized? If we cant free the arm/plate somehow? |
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jimi
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,220 
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Mar 19, 2024 13:55:45 GMT
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Have you looked at the slave cylinder while the pedal is being operated ? is the rod/clutch arm moving when the pedal is pressed ? Is the clutch arm stuck in the out position ?
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2024 13:56:12 GMT by jimi
Black is not a colour ! .... Its the absence of colour
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Mar 19, 2024 17:45:53 GMT
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Very likely the slave cylinder is seized with the actuator rod stuck out and the clutch is open.
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Mar 19, 2024 22:32:05 GMT
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Floppy pedal suggests to me that the master cylinder piston has stuck at the end of the stroke.
Open the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder, if you get a pressurised spurt of fluid, case proven. Unsticking the MC will be challenging!
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Mar 19, 2024 22:46:30 GMT
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Is it the case that you can put the car in gear with the engine running but letting the clutch pedal come up does nothing?
If so then it sounds like something is stuck/siezed, to figure out what I would undo the union on the master cylinder (as suggested above) and if there is pressure let it out and then see if the car then won't go into gear with the engine running.
If this is the case then the master cylinder has stuck, if on the otherhand its the same then the slave cylinder or clutch release arm are stuck.
It will just be a case of removing whatever is causing the problem and rebuilding or replacing it.
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,619
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Is it the case that you can put the car in gear with the engine running but letting the clutch pedal come up does nothing? If so then it sounds like something is stuck/siezed, to figure out what I would undo the union on the master cylinder (as suggested above) and if there is pressure let it out and then see if the car then won't go into gear with the engine running. If this is the case then the master cylinder has stuck, if on the otherhand its the same then the slave cylinder or clutch release arm are stuck. It will just be a case of removing whatever is causing the problem and rebuilding or replacing it. This is exactly it. You can start the car up, press the clutch (that has no feel) and put into any gear but it does nothing. We'll releasing pressure and see if it changes. Apparently the Spitfire is a pain to bleed so I did wonder if it was easier to unbolt the slave cylinder and see what that is doing. Would the easiest way to test the master to be undo the union and see if it squirts fluid? Someone mentioned checking the clutch fork I think but you cant see anything on this car, its all enclosed form what I could see in the garage |
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Mar 21, 2024 12:29:03 GMT
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Is it the case that you can put the car in gear with the engine running but letting the clutch pedal come up does nothing? If so then it sounds like something is stuck/siezed, to figure out what I would undo the union on the master cylinder (as suggested above) and if there is pressure let it out and then see if the car then won't go into gear with the engine running. If this is the case then the master cylinder has stuck, if on the otherhand its the same then the slave cylinder or clutch release arm are stuck. It will just be a case of removing whatever is causing the problem and rebuilding or replacing it. This is exactly it. You can start the car up, press the clutch (that has no feel) and put into any gear but it does nothing. We'll releasing pressure and see if it changes. Apparently the Spitfire is a pain to bleed so I did wonder if it was easier to unbolt the slave cylinder and see what that is doing. Would the easiest way to test the master to be undo the union and see if it squirts fluid? Someone mentioned checking the clutch fork I think but you cant see anything on this car, its all enclosed form what I could see in the garage I would start by loosening the union, if it squirts fluid then the master is stuck, if it sucks air then the slave is stuck (or possibly the clutch fork depending on whether the slave is fixed to the fork or whether the cylinder just pushes on it or a rod.
If the slave is easy to remove then it might be worth trying that first just to see if you can see anything and if the clutch arm then comes back.
Do you know why people say the clutch on the Spitfire is hard to bleed? Generally i've found on lots of cars people say that something is hard to bleed but I can't think of anything where i've ever found this to be the case. I've never done a Spitfire though!
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bricol
Part of things
Posts: 290
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Mar 21, 2024 12:53:34 GMT
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I had the master cylinder piston stick in the bore a very long time ago - if I remember correctly, the spring inside had snapped.
Got the piston back out by removing the cylinder, and tapping the side of the cylinder to vibrate it. Stretched the spring and reassembled to get home.
A replacement master cylinder cured it.
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,619
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Mar 21, 2024 13:48:58 GMT
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This is exactly it. You can start the car up, press the clutch (that has no feel) and put into any gear but it does nothing. We'll releasing pressure and see if it changes. Apparently the Spitfire is a pain to bleed so I did wonder if it was easier to unbolt the slave cylinder and see what that is doing. Would the easiest way to test the master to be undo the union and see if it squirts fluid? Someone mentioned checking the clutch fork I think but you cant see anything on this car, its all enclosed form what I could see in the garage I would start by loosening the union, if it squirts fluid then the master is stuck, if it sucks air then the slave is stuck (or possibly the clutch fork depending on whether the slave is fixed to the fork or whether the cylinder just pushes on it or a rod. If the slave is easy to remove then it might be worth trying that first just to see if you can see anything and if the clutch arm then comes back. Do you know why people say the clutch on the Spitfire is hard to bleed? Generally i've found on lots of cars people say that something is hard to bleed but I can't think of anything where i've ever found this to be the case. I've never done a Spitfire though!
I think it might be the access to the slave cylinder. I'm guessing it maybe can be access on a ramp or jacked up but it looks like most people take the transmission tunnel out to work on it. I did hear that somewhere but maybe its a load of bull. Heres a still of someone removing the slave on youtube. when I looked the other day you couldnt even see it from the front of the bell housing.  One reason I thought maybe we could just unbolt it and see what its doing was so if its not the problem we havent got to re bleed anything with the easybleed break kit that we have. With the slave and braided hose being new I do wonder if its the master or the clutch has just stuck to the fly wheel. Unfortunately I cant get to the car at the moment as I'm too busy :/ |
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Mar 21, 2024 15:40:15 GMT
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I would start by loosening the union, if it squirts fluid then the master is stuck, if it sucks air then the slave is stuck (or possibly the clutch fork depending on whether the slave is fixed to the fork or whether the cylinder just pushes on it or a rod. If the slave is easy to remove then it might be worth trying that first just to see if you can see anything and if the clutch arm then comes back. Do you know why people say the clutch on the Spitfire is hard to bleed? Generally i've found on lots of cars people say that something is hard to bleed but I can't think of anything where i've ever found this to be the case. I've never done a Spitfire though!
I think it might be the access to the slave cylinder. I'm guessing it maybe can be access on a ramp or jacked up but it looks like most people take the transmission tunnel out to work on it. I did hear that somewhere but maybe its a load of bull. Heres a still of someone removing the slave on youtube. when I looked the other day you couldnt even see it from the front of the bell housing. One reason I thought maybe we could just unbolt it and see what its doing was so if its not the problem we havent got to re bleed anything with the easybleed break kit that we have. With the slave and braided hose being new I do wonder if its the master or the clutch has just stuck to the fly wheel. Unfortunately I cant get to the car at the moment as I'm too busy :/ I've only ever found clutches that stick on before not off and the fact it goes into gear with the engine running but won't move suggests that its not the plate that siezed as I can't imagine it would sieze in the released position because the springs that push it on are really strong.
If the slave is new and the pipe is new then the master is a likely culprit, however, with some new parts being of variable quality don't rule out the hose having collapsed internally.
I seem to remember from the Spitfire I had (but only ever had it in bits not on the road) that you could remove a cover over the tunnel to get to the gearbox but i'm not sure what access that gives to the slave cylinder.
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,619
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Mar 21, 2024 23:31:08 GMT
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[/quote] I've only ever found clutches that stick on before not off and the fact it goes into gear with the engine running but won't move suggests that its not the plate that siezed as I can't imagine it would sieze in the released position because the springs that push it on are really strong. If the slave is new and the pipe is new then the master is a likely culprit, however, with some new parts being of variable quality don't rule out the hose having collapsed internally. I seem to remember from the Spitfire I had (but only ever had it in bits not on the road) that you could remove a cover over the tunnel to get to the gearbox but i'm not sure what access that gives to the slave cylinder.
[/quote] I did wonder about that. I've never encountered a stuck clutch so just going off what people are saying really. I'm guessing we wont know until we start taking it apart although maybe my Dad could disconnect the hose from the master cylinder and see if it pumps fluid out. You can take the tunnel out like the photo above but its a bit of a task by the looks of it. If we can get at it underneath it might be easier. |
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Mar 22, 2024 19:28:18 GMT
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Had the same happen on my TR7 the spring inside the master had broken and jammed the piston, as others have said slaken the pipe union at the master cylinder with a rag under it, the you should then have drive if so fit a new master cyl.
At least you have the car at home I had to do this in the middle of a busy junction then start it in gear and drive with no clutch.
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