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I thought this may interest many people here even though its pretty much OT. But... we all moan about eBay, we all use eBay and some people like specifically to use French and German eBay sites... The text of the report (which comes from a mailer I get on online legal issues from a firm of solictors) is as follows: ------------snip------------------ A French Government watchdog is trying to shut down eBay in France. The Council of Sales regulates auction houses and has said that the site should be bound by strict French auction rules. The French eBay site does not have one of the Council's permits to operate as an auctions service and so does not have to abide by regulations which were made law in 2000. This, said the Council, gives it an unfair advantage and should change. “This is unfair competition, because other auctioneers have to make sure they are transparent and that they provide guarantees,” Council chairman Christian Giacomotto told The Times newspaper. "Our ambition is not to regulate the world, but we want groups such as eBay to accept their responsibility.” The Council has filed a lawsuit against eBay in France and hopes that a court will rule that eBay is an auction house and must abide by French rules. The company said that the regulations should not apply because it is not an auction house, just a facilitator. "EBay has invented a new way of buying and selling, which has been adopted by 10 million French people, and which is not at all the same as that of auction houses," said a company statement. It called the action "totally unjust". The Council said that eBay's failure to abide by the rules governing auction houses leaves consumers open to exploitation by unscrupulous eBay users, and could make it easier for users to sell fakes or to evade tax. It is not the first time that the Council has taken such action. Earlier this year it began similar proceedings against a car auction site. The Council said that it had studied eBay for three years and had put together a list of complaints against the site, including cases of goods not being sent and fake art being sold to consumers. The Council said that it did not accept eBay's assertion that it was simply a broker and not an actual auctioneer. "What is the difference?" Giacomotto said to The Times. "They charge a commission to the seller and a commission to the buyer. These people cannot say they are responsible for nothing at all. If you rent your house to someone who sets up an illegal casino in it, then you share part of the responsibility." -------- snip ---------- "those crazy French at it again" or "about time someone forced eBay to be responsible for actions on its site" ??
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Last Edit: Dec 7, 2007 9:24:50 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Lets be quite clear about what the French govt is about here...
They basically can give eBay 2 choices.
1. That they apply for and gain an "Auctioneer's Permit" which will require eBay to act as a guarantor (sp?) on all good sold via eBay in France. This I doubt eBay will want to do as they are pretty rigourous in thier defence that they are no actually an auctineer and they are not liable for the auctions on their site. If they were everytime someone sold you somethign you thought wasn;t right you could get your money back off eBay rather than having to pursue the seller. With the number of tat merchants and scams on eBay you reckon they will go for this?
2. eBay would be required to shut down eBay.fr its French "located" site and also presumably to take "reasonable steps" to prevent access to the main eBay.com eBay.co.uk etc sites from French users. Geographic location blocking already takes place on a lot of websites with regard to broadcast rights/copyright control, state and national gaming laws and such.
#1 would set a dangerous precident for eBay as other countries would then expect similar consumer protection and seek to enforce it legally.
#2 would be a serious embarrassment for eBay and would add fuel to the fire for those who are trying to get eBay to take action against scams and other complaints.
of course no action has yet been taken and any action would be fought by eBay right the way through the French and EU courts.
Could be an interesting battle to watch though.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Excellent work. About time someone stuck it to 'em.
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Very interesting. Might be a story there. As Pog suggests, is about time that someone took them to task.
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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"This I doubt eBay will want to do as they are pretty rigourous in thier defence that they are no actually an auctineer and they are not liable for the auctions on their site."
I bet someone in IT is writing up a script to search and replace every instance of the word "auction" on the site with "facilitated transaction"
Your "facilitated transaction" ends in 2 mins.
;D
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Good on the French tbh. It has always annoyed me the ebay operates as an auction but without any of the legal protection that a real auction house provides buyers and sellers. iirc paypal (ebay owned) moved their headquarters overseas to some tax-haven island so that they don't fall under banking ombudsman jurisdiction.
The problem is that if they do register properly , they will then have to take a real crack-down on scams and fake goods, and compensation to ripped off users will have come from ebays pocket. They are there to make money so to cover payouts, fees will have to increase dramaticaly. That means us the average punters end up paying much more to use it. Also, it can hardly be seen as being fair if they have this crack-down in France, and do things by the book, yet leave every other country to continue getting fleeced.
The beginning of the end for ebay? I doubt it, they will come back in another form somehow and continue to operate some sort of trading system after a re-vamp. Much as I dislike ebay for various reasons, no-one can possibly deny that it is an awesome tool for buying and selling in a much bigger market than was ever possible pefore.
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1986 Panda 4x4. 1990 Metro Sport. 1999 Ford Escort estate.
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Cracking post, cheers. I keep hearing from long term regular eBay traders that eBay is NOT an auction, it's a 'venue' and they allegedly mention this from time to time when under threat of action from unhappy customers. It IS about time they were taken to task because not only are the completely disinterested in non-payers, non-sellers and idiots but also they condone scammers. I, along with some other traders, have reported scam listings and in certain cases 7 days later they are still on there. Yes, some people are stupid and greedy and believe they will get a twelve grand car for £2300 but eBay simply do not do enough to stop scammers because it pays them to leave them alone (more revenue). It's laughable that in the face of decreasing listings they come up with all kinds of stupid irrelevent ideas purely based on ill conceived thoughts and misconceptions, and yet leave the scammers on who are quite likely the main reason people are leaving. It has been a brilliant tool for buying and selling but in some respects I hope it's days are numbered or they're forced to start being held responsible. Sorry for the rant.
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Corsa Apology Champion 2014.
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eBay love it and hate it...
I think the trick with eBay is that they "facilitate" YOU being the acutioneer. They are your auctions, not eBay's auctions.
Paypal is a US company and always was, they have their european operation based out of the Hague or somesuch place. They are not a bank nor are they a credit broker and as such he banking ombudsman nor the finacial regulators have nothing to do with them. Someone told me Paypal is illegal in a number of countries including Germany because only a bank or credit card company can handle financial transactions there (ie so that all transactions are handled by a regulated operator) which is why German sellers never tak e Paypal. However UK and USA and a number of other countries allow unregulated operators like Paypal, NoChex and Western Union to operate.
eBay is becoming a pain in the ass to the level that I really use it as a last resort now, both to sell and to buy. And I used to be a real advocate of it.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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I'm sorry to see all the "good on France, eBay deserves it" responses. I'm sorry but I fail to see how eBay is so evil as to deserve to be harassed or shut down. I've got my complaints like everyone else (I dislike the changes they made so that all bids over £100 are anonymous thus making shill bidding easier), but aren't we supposed to be responsible adults. The whole attraction of ebay is that it's a laissez faire free-for-all. Anyone can join (including fraudsters unfortunately) and sell pretty much anything they like with a few exceptions. The fees they charge are low and the potential market huge. However, since it is mostly unregulated, if you go on eBay you really should be careful in your dealings.
So you want eBay to be regulated so that patsies have their arses wiped for them if they cock up and bid on a car listed by a nigerian scammer? Well then be prepared to see your listing fees increase, and buyers also to see buyers fees imposed as well. And it's still unlikely that eBay will guarantee the goods sold through it as it would go bankrupt.
Consider the terms and conditions imposed by my local auction house
Registration - For Tuesday Trade Auctions a returnable deposit of £50 is required for those buyers wishing to purchase goods using temporary buyer's number.
Permanent buyer's numbers may be available (subject to terms) on the production of a photo driver's licence or a passport and a current utility bill.
Guarantees. Unless specifically stated otherwise, all lots are sold without any Guarantee whatsoever and must be bid on an "as seen" basis.
No guarantee is given or implied as to the condition, completeness or suitability of use of any lot when we sell them.
Certain purchases which will be marked with an * will attract VAT on the full hammer price. All purchases are subject to a Buyers commission together with VAT thereon.
Guildford Street Premises. Buyers Premium of 17.5% of the hammer price + VAT is charged on all lots.
Note that my local auctioneer doesn't guarantee the goods they sell (most of the fees are necessitated by having to employ auctioneers, clerks, and other staff, advertising, and maintaining a "bricks and mortar" premises, but still it reflects what is likely to happen if eBays costs increase). That's because they aren't selling them but providing a forum to facilitate the sale of other peoples' goods. That's what auctioneers do. You don't expect your local newspaper to guarantee the cars, white goods, furniture or hookers that are advertised in its classifieds section, so why do you expect eBay or any other auctioneer to assume that risk?
Do you really want to see your sellers premiums doubled or tripled? Do you want to see your listing fees increased? Do you want to start paying buyers fees? Have you considered what effect your calls for more regulation of ebay would do to the number of sellers or buyers? I'd probably use eBay a lot less if I got slapped with a 10% buyers premium every time I buy a car, or a piece of furniture or any other relatively expensive item. Likewise, since much of the stuff I sell on eBay isn't worth great deal I'd probably quit selling it if my selling costs increased.
And this action by the French government isn't caused by concerns that eBay users are being ripped off. It's no doubt prompted by the complaints of French Auction houses who are uncompetitive with eBay. This isn't necessarily their fault as the article states that they are forced to provide guarantees of their goods (something that auctioneers here in the UK aren't required to do) by government regulations. So really it comes down to the government slapping onerous rules on their auctioneers without regard to the effect of those rules, and people consequently taking their business elsewhere as a result. I shudder to think what the fees must be for a French auction house if they are required to provide guarantees on the goods they sell.
AlistairK, I disagree with your suggestion that the French government could somehow force eBay to block French users. If eBay shuts down its .fr site, I don't think can be forced to do anything to ban French users, thats a problem for the French government and French ISP providers and I think the government would have a great deal of difficulty making the case for such a ban. If French eBay users want to shop on ebay.co.uk or ebay.com that's not the business of the French government. Hell, they can list items for sale on those sites as well. If eBay is smart it will simply set up an eBay Quebec site, also in French, and allow French users to buy and sell on it. This isn't like the case of google voluntarily censoring itself in order to get permission to open a chinese google site and therefore earn money in China. We're talking about the French government banning a foreign corporation and then demanding that French law apply to that corporation's activities in other countries.
Anyways that's my two bits worth.
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Last Edit: Dec 7, 2007 12:26:38 GMT by mrabody
1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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Some interesting reading here. I'm also a love/hate person with Ebay. Have recently sold two cars via the 'bay and may well be buying something soon on German Ebay but I don't like their lazy approach to dealing with problems. They're happy to take the cash but less happy to help their customers.
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org
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mrabody I must say I agree with you 100%. A very articulate and concisely put argument. I for one, although acknowledging that ebay attracts its fraudsters (name me a market place of ANY kind that doesn't!!), would hate to go back to the "Dark Ages" and be without it!!
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Some interesting reading here. I'm also a love/hate person with Ebay. Have recently sold two cars via the 'bay and may well be buying something soon on German Ebay but I don't like their lazy approach to dealing with problems. They're happy to take the cash but less happy to help their customers. Just ask yourself how much more you are willing to pay for better customer service from eBay. It really comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. I'm willing to put up with poor customer service if it means fees are kept low. Low fees means lots of users and (hopefully) lower prices. Lots of users potentially means more bidders on the items I sell, and more sellers flogging Rootes bits to me. Frankly I'd rather see eBay spending their money upgrading the technical aspects of the site. They've made listing items incredibly easy, they've finally created an ebay motors UK site (although it has a long ways to go to equal its American equivalent). The ebay toolbar is also handy. It all comes down to your priorities I guess. If you've been burned badly then I can see why you might prefer more regulation. So far I've only had one person not pay for an item, and another not send an item in close to 250 transactions. Maybe I'm lucky. On the other hand, I don't tend to buy very expensive items unless the pictures or descriptions are excellent or I can view them in person beforehand. Caveat Emptor
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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DutyFreeSaviour
Europe
Back For More heartbreak and disappointment.....
Posts: 2,944
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Have to agree on the lack of action once scammers etc... are reported. Surely that would enhance the reputation of the site and keep those happy customers returning - the basis for all good business. On the other side of the argument, another proposed legislation to 'protect the consumer' that - to be honest - isn't doing that at all, it's taking yet more responsibility off those who are stupid enough to expect a £10k car for peanuts and then hand over all bank and personal details........ Unfortunately people evade paying all the time, whether online, walking out of a shop with the goods tucked under their jacket or breaking into the house/garage while you're out!
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Back from the dead..... kind of
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I did say they "could" ask eBay to block French IPs. Its an option they have open to them and they could prosecute eBay in another EU country for failing to keep up their end of the bargain even if eBay is "gone" from France. For example FoxyBingo and all those operators have to block USA IPs because of US gaming regulations which makes online bingo illegal there, and the US is one of the more ardent nations at applying its laws internationally, and yes the UK government has agreed to extradite bingo site operators to face prosecution in the US if Americans are found to have accessed their sites. Many radio stations with streaming media content block that content from vistors who come from other countries in order to comply with their broadcast licences for the music or other material they have. Theres growing international co-operation on these kinds of issues now.
Yes, the issue with eBay.fr has been raised by the auction houses. I can undserstand their complaints if they are forced to use one set of rules and eBay appear to not be bound by them. If terms are applied on French eBay it will make it rather odd when buying you will have different rights against different seller or eBay.
Yes, I agree, you get what you pay for. eBay is cheap and cheerful to an extent, but to say that they can just allow scammers and the like to operate on thier service with no responsibility is daft. mrabody mentions buying somehting from an ad in the paper - well if you buy it via the post then you are protected, the newpaper is bound by MOPA to give you your money back if they accept adverts from scammers. Why should eBay be any different?
They are quick enough to cancel your listing if you say "will accept part exchange" on a car, so don;t tell me they can't check their adverts...
Not everyone is internet or fraud savvy, even in this day and age, saying its their tough luck if they get ripped off is harsh. A basic level of "duty of care" should be enforced and IMO eBay now falls well below the level I'd expect.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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DutyFreeSaviour
Europe
Back For More heartbreak and disappointment.....
Posts: 2,944
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Fair points from yourself and MrABody - and the level of service and responsibility E of the Bay takes is, quite frankly, shocking. So anything to get them to be more responsible is a good thing, crossing the line and making them culpable is - I think - a step too far where scammers are concerned. Quite right - they should - and be forced to if necessary - remove ANY listing suspected of scamming - basic protection of your consumers, which again I feel should be a minimum practice to enhance their name and ensure repeat business. Not right - that they could be held responsible for 'duff' purchases made by over eager or naive bidders. That steps into the field of removing a persons responsibility for their own actions. There are always going to be fraudsters and thefts in this world unfortunately, but to remove someones responsibility for the loss as they click on a 'rather obvious' scam listing is too much. E of the Bay cannot be held financially responsible for another persons foolhardiness or greed. There are, after all, plenty of warnings about these scammers everywhere on the same internet that the bidders are using! Lines have to be drawn or else it'll always be - not my fault.... where does it stop?
On another note - would be a nice market for online purchase insurance? Anyone doing that at the moment?
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Back from the dead..... kind of
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For my 2p worth, I've got to agree with mrabody, and the two most significant words when dealing over ebay, through private ads or anywhere. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Agreed, ebay may have a duty of care, and it seems quite obvious that they check their ads (removal of PX accepted etc), but don't remove some of the scams, and some people are daft enough to think they can get something for nothing. However, some people are also clever enough to think they can get something for nothing, and then claim compo when they don't, thus making it a win-win situation, and that's why the idea of regulation, and the costs it causes, rub me up the wrong way.
I think ebay is a quality tool, and everything you buy can be viewed first if you so wish, thus giving you the chance to assess both the item and the seller. And the No. 1 Golden Rule applies on ebay more-so than anywhere. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
On the French issue, though, my guess will be that ebay could quite easily give up online auctions on ebay.fr, and instead just move towards buy-it-now and best offer listings, which would then only be classed as private advertisements. My thoughts anyway.....
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frankster, thats the most obvious idea and one that never struck me...
caveat emptor is all well and good but theres a whole range of consumer protection legislation which is there because not everybody can be expected to be competantly knowledgeable about everything, nor should they need to be. Ths lunchtime I just bought my daughter a teddy bear, I don't need to be a certified tester who can ensure that the dies used won't be toxic, nor that the fur will come off in clumps and risk choking her, all I know is I bought it from a reputable shop and as such it will have been properly tested before going on sale.
The issue falls down to where the line is drawn.
If I buy an item off eBay and it turns out to be mis-described or otherwise dud should eBay give me my money back? probably not, but they should apply more pressure to the seller than they do now, although as a one-time seller I know some buyers are idiots too. But eBay shoudl do more to adjudicate. Or bad sellers should be booted off quicker. If this means sellers pay higher fees then meh.
If soeone sells me somethign and it plain does not exist (take the money and run fraud) or its one of the many misrepresentation scams then eBay should be liable as its a crime and they facilitated it. If you own a house, rent it out and its used by your renter as a crack whore den then you are liable in law for that so I don;t see why eBay is seemingly exempt from the same facilitation laws the rest of us have to abide by.
Its not always possible to see an item before you buy it. I recently bought a media player and it was shipped from Hong Kong. Lots of electronic goods, watches and stuff like that come in from the far east on eBay, its not just people buying cars or slot mags. Not sure what the % of sales are but a lot of stuff is coming in from abroad.
And the other thing to remember is that a lot of sellers on eBay now are businesses hiding behind eBay. Nothing wrong with running a business on eBay unless you are doing it there to try and short shift people on customer care or duck your responsibilities under consumer legislation by pretending to be a private seller or whatever. eBay also needs to take more action on this score - and I understand it is being forced to by HMRC, although they have other things to be worrying about at the moment themselves...
eBay is a great idea, and one which I have used a lot in the past, but one which is falling steadily into disrepute.
As for online fraud protection insurance - use a credit card for purchases and you are covered. Even a visa debit card will give you some measure of protection. Switch/Maestro/Mastercard/Diners Club less so. Paypal... Hmmmm "seller guarantee"...
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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