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Nov 28, 2022 19:06:48 GMT
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Around here (chelmsford essex) many of the busses are approaching twenty years old, the main thing a LEZ would do is take many of the bussess they want you to use offthe road!
One of essex county councils cunnung plans was to close a road to all traffic except busses so the bussess didn't have to sit in a que and create loads of pollution!
The worry is most of these schemes are significant revenue generators as Mr Kahn has shown in london what the people want is irrelevant when they can raise a few bob so soon every council will be jumping on the bandwagon.
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,719
Club RR Member Number: 11
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Spare a thought for those of us caught in the extended zone. I am Bexley born and bred and work for the local council.
Pollution rates aren't bad, it is a suburb with farmland, forests, meadows and large gardens full of greenery.
What it doesnt have is an integrated transport link. No tube/dlr/tram etc so car ownership is the most efficient way to cross the borough any direction other than towards central London. This is not some built up metropolis part of London but the outer suburbs. It is nothing more than an income generation scheme for the Mayor. The councils and residents are 70% opposed to it but he needs the money.
If it was about pollution he would have not allowed City airport in the centre to expand flights, he would have looked at the particulate pollution from incinerators and the tube ventilation, or log burners, but its the easy soft touch.
Yes it's great for you who are outside of any big city and not faced with this, you'll have thousands of retro cars flooding onto the market, either that or be ranting about them all being scrapped.
Sad times for us in Greater London, and probably will kill off small businesses left right and centre, like the Ace Cafe.
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Good point about the actual polution, this approach is completely NIMBY. What happened to "save the planet"? Forcing people to buy a newer car just means that somewhere down the line an old car gets scrapped.
That means a lot of energy (and therefore pollution and environmental damage) goes into making a new one, and a considerable amount of energy, pollution and environmental damage goes into destroying an old one.
We should really be thinking about the people whose lives and environments are effected by mining, manufacturing and "recycling" across the globe as much as our own air quality...
...but too much money is involved
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It has NEVER been about pollution, air quality or however you want to term it.
Spanking you for tax is what’s ALL about & always has been, along with basically ‘buying’ jobs.
Telling someone they can’t drive a car somewhere ’unless they pay’ tells you all you need to know.
If some old boy for example, is still driving his 1989 Sierra that he’s owned from new, clearly it won’t be as efficient as a new car.
However, taking it from him, scrapping it & selling him a new car & then trying to tell us all that that is planet saving, is quite frankly insulting.
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Some cities I've visited have Clean Air Zones (CAZ) however I have heard previously that other cities are adopting a similar approach. A friend heard on Essex Live something about Southend and Basildon having an emissions based scheme implemented however I'm yet to see anything concrete. Regarding a situation where two schemes are close together, if (for example) I live in Basildon but work in Southend, would I pay both charges? Also, what about nightworkers? Would I then pay one day, then again on my return the following day? |
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Anyway. Moaning on here wont solve anything.
Stop voting for the main parties, push for a new party of the people based around common sense rather than tribally following the same two or three useless ones and thier stooges. Turn off the main stream media and stop feeding off thier Bullplop and parroting thier oppinions.
If you care about pollution, air quality or whatever then push for real solutions like nuclear power, a hydrogen fuel network and a reduced population.
Stop sitting back and moaning and start making a stand. Take a sthil saw to the anpr cams and bollarded off streets.
If it doesnt work start a civil war.
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Nov 29, 2022 10:36:56 GMT
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You know what took polution waaaaay down?
Covid.
OK not everyone can work from home but the city commute is what causes the huge amount of congestion and polution and guess who was really pushing people "back to the office" - our government... Because people working from home in mass was causing office prices to fall... And that effects investment values of office blocks etc.
I understand totally that city polution is a real issue and it causes health issues for what are typically the poorest of our citizens.
I had hoped that we would learn something from covid. We found so many other and often better ways to do things, and yet we seem to be so keen to go back to everything being just how it was in 2019. Even the "covid secure" methods for boarding and disembarking an aircraft was much nicer than the "angsty scrum" approach we have gone back to. One way routes in shops etc actually made it easier to get round. Working from home cuts traffic etc.
"sell more new cars" isn't the answer.
"Make public transport work" might be a part of it
"Encourage more flexible working practices" may be part if it
Its not a simple problem, its not got a simple fix, and as Slater says sitting here moaning just spreads bad vibes, and a lot of "tinfoil hat" thinking. The world is a complex place and "its just councils wanting to make money" is a mass oversimplification
Anyway.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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mrbig
West Midlands
Semi-professional Procrastinator
Posts: 509
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Nov 29, 2022 11:01:20 GMT
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I wasn't too bothered about this until I realised that it's going to cost me £12.50 every time I need to go to Heathrow  |
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1969 German Look Beetle - in progress
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jpr1977
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 659
Club RR Member Number: 18
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Nov 29, 2022 11:18:09 GMT
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Gatwick is going to get busy....
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Nov 29, 2022 11:26:32 GMT
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"Make public transport work" might be a part of it Planning and public transport are a big deal for the majority of commuting and environmental issues relating to personal transport (not getting in to the whole shipping/haulage side of the equation which is a massive deal). I found the Climate Town channel deals well with this stuff : www.youtube.com/@climatetown in an amusing way. As for skinnylew and those now trapped in this zone, I'm hopeful that individual exemptions (spelled correctly this time) can be applied for if your car passes the NOx measurements, even if the car itself wasn't originally in Euro4. I also know what you mean about how much of this area isn't exactly "City" and it seems like a fairly hefty overreach. I suspect the lines are drawn at council boundaries and because of the diverse nature of outer London council makeup it has swept up stuff that shouldn't be in there, and communities that can afford for this to be a policy. Hopefully at some point we can get a more joined up environmental policy and funding back to local authorities to bring public transport up to the level it should be, but suspect we won't be getting that chance until 2024. As akku says we've seemingly not learned the (positive) lessons from the pandemic. Finally Jonny69 has started a useful thread about the technicalities of this, what the rules are and what your options are here: forum.retro-rides.org/thread/223588/ulez-compliance-altered-emissions-testing |
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Nov 29, 2022 11:36:48 GMT
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I wasn't too bothered about this until I realised that it's going to cost me £12.50 every time I need to go to Heathrow Pretty much the same as the cost to repurchase all the liquids you can't take through security.  |
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Nov 29, 2022 13:29:53 GMT
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"Make public transport work" might be a part of it Planning and public transport are a big deal for the majority of commuting and environmental issues relating to personal transport Hopefully at some point we can get a more joined up environmental policy and funding back to local authorities to bring public transport up to the level it should be, but suspect we won't be getting that chance until 2024. As akku says we've seemingly not learned the (positive) lessons from the pandemic. The problem is that there are competing vested interests in play. Not always the obvious ones either. I have worked for local government, and was involved in strategic level "decision making", I have very little hope for joined up thinking. My exposure was around safeguarding and that was depressing. I'm not shocked at the scandals continuing to come out. Its not that its a cover up its that its just incompetance and ideological blinkers driving policies. I know people who work(ed) in transport planning, the environmental stuff round that. My little view in to that world reminds me of my own experiences. But worse. It will only likely come as a top down enforcement, and we will need to elect the Greens or someone to do that - not the usual choice of 2. |
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Last Edit: Nov 29, 2022 13:31:32 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Nov 29, 2022 15:43:17 GMT
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There is a ULEZ type thing coming to sheffield soon, "currently" only aimed at comercial vehicles but it wont be long until it's expanded. It's supposed to be to help with polution but it's set to bring in £23k per day. If they truely wanted to lower polution they would have bought EV busses and rented them to the bus companies with the money instead. Or they could stop purposely creating bottle necks for traffic. We have just moved out of Sheff and if I didnt have to go in for work I would have no reason to go in, even working in the centre I don't venture out as it's a dump lol. As a garage owner in Sheffield city centre this is a massive hit to small businesses. I personally do a fair few tradies vans, people who have money but not enough for overly inflated Euro6-spec vans so this is a potential loss of trade. The council claim to have "options in place" to help businesses, but in reality you only get anywhere with this if you are in contact with the council from a large company that can afford such options. Many small companies in the area where my business is are simply feeling like we're of no importance despite our business rates payments. Some of Sheffield's last remaining historically important firms and trades may fall by the wayside as a result. The other issue I have with the plans are that in Sheffield we don't have the road infrastructure to support these grand plans. Anywhere outside the ring-road is heavily residential and already used as rat-runs due to other idiotic road-closure schemes the council recently introduced, so I'm guessing the air-quality is going to plummet in those areas as more traffic is forced to divert through them to avoid charges. Saying that, air quality follows wind direction, but try telling that to a councillor who has never worked a hard days graft in their lives, let alone in hard-labour trades. I have my own views on "green transport", all I'm going to say is that hopefully a test can be designed to certify older cars to the relevant standards if possible. I'd love to see how many of the Euro6 cars would fair what with all the DPF/EGR/AdBlue delete carp flying around these days. |
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Nov 29, 2022 16:02:39 GMT
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All public transport is is a way of taking peoples freedoms away from them. It doesnt solve any of the problems just takes away peoples ability to live life and makes them dependent.
Working from home may be fine for some but many abuse it. Theres more too it than the price of offices. If the government cared about thier declining value they would be chaging planning law to get empty offices converted to housing that's where the money is.
All a bit political for RR isnt it?
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Nov 29, 2022 16:08:09 GMT
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All public transport is is a way of taking peoples freedoms away from them. Or alternatively, it is the only way I can get from Somerset to The City in a timely manner, driving would take me an infinite amount of time. |
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Nov 29, 2022 16:40:52 GMT
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Last Edit: Nov 29, 2022 16:41:52 GMT by joem83
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Nov 29, 2022 17:31:35 GMT
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Dodge 50 in the upper pic. We had dozens of those as mini buses at the NCB. Terrible terrible things, is being polite at best, wow they were curse word
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Nov 29, 2022 17:44:00 GMT
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Dodge 50 in the upper pic. We had dozens of those as mini buses at the NCB. Terrible terrible things, is being polite at best, wow they were curse word We had them for a while when I was a kid, they used to cover area's inbetween the main routes. Our route went up 2 of the steepest hills in Sheffield, they realy struggled (I was about 5 and can remember thinking this is slow lol) |
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Nov 29, 2022 17:50:04 GMT
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Dodge 50 in the upper pic. We had dozens of those as mini buses at the NCB. Terrible terrible things, is being polite at best, wow they were curse word We had them for a while when I was a kid, they used to cover area's inbetween the main routes. Our route went up 2 of the steepest hills in Sheffield, they realy struggled (I was about 5 and can remember thinking this is slow lol) They were pretty steady with 20 hairy ar$ed miners in the back I can tell you 🤣 |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 29, 2022 19:59:22 GMT
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Thing is, slater is right to an extent.
The rise of the private car was the democratisation of transport for the majority of the population. Even in pre-Beeching days when we had 60% more rail routes and pretty much every village in the country was served by an omnibus at least daily, people couldn’t get everywhere they wanted to go without resorting to walking (which is fine as long as the weather is ok, you’re not in a hurry and you don’t need to take anything with you) so chose to buy cars if they could afford it.
With cars getting cheaper due to economies of scale and the public transport network being gradually eroded to less than half of what it was 50 years ago, the car is the first choice and often only choice for the majority of people these days.
The crackdown on car ownership by the powers that be makes me uncomfortable. It’s hard to see how it can be cited as being solely environmentally driven when the answer is simply “pay more and you can do what you want”. That’s a poor tax.
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Last Edit: Nov 29, 2022 20:03:52 GMT by Dez
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Ax GTi Turbo
