tofufi
South West
Posts: 1,452
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I've a similar problem with my factory Volvo 740TD (using the VW straight 6 engine).
It just doesn't work hard enough to get fully up to temp. At first I thought it was a faulty stat and replaced it, but no difference.
I found that blocking off the radiator made a difference in winter - I assume less air cooled the block.
I also found it warmed up mildly faster after fitting an intercooler and AC matrix...
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Nov 21, 2022 10:37:03 GMT
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does it warm up in the summer?
could you fit a 'cooler' thermostat?
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jimi
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,815
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Nov 21, 2022 14:49:44 GMT
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We used these preheaters offshore to keep the lifeboat engines warm, so they started easily. Mains powered, easy to install. LINKY
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Black is not a colour ! .... Its the absence of colour
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Nov 21, 2022 18:26:12 GMT
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does it warm up in the summer? could you fit a 'cooler' thermostat? Yeah, warms up fine in summer. There is no cooler thermostat available. Wouldn't help as well, needs to get to temperature quicker.
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Nov 21, 2022 18:30:27 GMT
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We used these preheaters offshore to keep the lifeboat engines warm, so they started easily. Mains powered, easy to install. LINKYThat's a neat thing. I might be tempted to install such a thing to get an easy start in the morning with a nice warm interior. But i suspect the coolant to cool off quite hard when the power is off and i start driving. I think i first need to drastically limit the amount of air coming through the heater...
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Nov 21, 2022 19:40:31 GMT
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It's a perenial problem with modern direct injection diesels, the latest ones use split circuits so coolant flows through the head only until it is warm.
If you can squeeze one in the diesel fired heaters are best option (they can go in the boot), otherwise perhaps a boost pump to push more coolant through the heater, restrict some of the airflow (will probably deteriorate demist).
The glow plug type ptc heaters have 2 benefits direct heat and they load the engine via the alternator so it produces more heat, bottom line is oem's struggle so unless you can fit a diesel fired heater it will never be great.
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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,195
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Nov 29, 2022 15:37:58 GMT
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Nov 29, 2022 17:34:53 GMT
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That looks more like a independent burner for preheating.🤔 That would need mounting in the engine compartment to get it's exhaust gasses out. There really is no room for that. And i have no clue how that is wired in. You can probably also preheat the car with it? The item with the glowplugs can't be used with the engine not running, it will drain the battery. I'm gonna see if i can find one local to get an idea of it's size. But i'll blank off the incoming air first.
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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,195
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Nov 30, 2022 10:30:00 GMT
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Its quite a compact unit but if space is an issue it may not be an option.
Plumbed directly into the exhaust system of the car.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Nov 30, 2022 10:39:35 GMT
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My vw touran has something like that, separate exhaust, don't think its ever fired up though
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Nov 30, 2022 11:55:14 GMT
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On the E46 I broke it had an electric coolant pre-heater plumbed into the coolant system with a few valves on solenoids to direct coolant flow around it. Might be a little more compact than a diesel pre-heater. I think I might still have one knocking around somewhere. You might be able to ditch the solenoid valves and just plumb it in-line with the heater matrix inlet, triggered by a temp sender (or get someone to write an output to the ECU). Or, for a simpler setup, you could run it off a switch in the cabin and a relay... I'm back at the old place this weekend so might be able to get some measurements.
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Last Edit: Nov 30, 2022 12:02:49 GMT by biturbo228
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Nov 30, 2022 19:52:35 GMT
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On the E46 I broke it had an electric coolant pre-heater plumbed into the coolant system with a few valves on solenoids to direct coolant flow around it. Might be a little more compact than a diesel pre-heater. I think I might still have one knocking around somewhere. You might be able to ditch the solenoid valves and just plumb it in-line with the heater matrix inlet, triggered by a temp sender (or get someone to write an output to the ECU). Or, for a simpler setup, you could run it off a switch in the cabin and a relay... I'm back at the old place this weekend so might be able to get some measurements. E46 does indeed have an inline electric heater in the cooling system. However it is operated by some pwm signal from the ecu. Apparently you can't just put a switch on it.
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Nov 30, 2022 20:59:09 GMT
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The E46 likes to use PWM signals for stuff that other manufacturers just power normally. The fuel pump is one.
I'd be tempted to pick one up and see what happens if you stick 12v through it. I expect the solenoids might need a PWM signal, but the actual heater matrix gubbins you can probably be powered with a switched 12v fine.
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Nov 30, 2022 21:37:57 GMT
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Can't you just drive with the handbrake on, to increase the load?
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go retro with a radiator blind / muff land rovers use a muff or you can still buy one and the blind was literally like a roller bling you operate from in the car stopping the airflow to the rad but adjustable www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/radiator-blinds.htm
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Can't you just drive with the handbrake on, to increase the load? 😂 I've started eating more so the car needs to move more weight.doesn't seem to be working. Might give the handbrake idea a try🤔
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go retro with a radiator blind / muff land rovers use a muff or you can still buy one and the blind was literally like a roller bling you operate from in the car stopping the airflow to the rad but adjustable www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/radiator-blinds.htmI have a rather large intercooler in front of the radiator and that thing really likes decent airflow.😉 I tried blocking the air flowing through the radiator with a piece of cardboard. Didn't really help with the warming up. It did help keeping the engine at a higher temp when it finally opened the thermostat. Will block off the air inlet to the heaterbox this weekend to see how much difference that will make.
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Look at what they use in the Scandi markets , there will be a solution either an Ebers or Web , they can be used to control the dash fans and flaps as well as providing pre heat , remember theres nothing to stop you piping up control valves to take the heater matrix out of the engine circuit in the winter and the pre heaters can go under floor
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retired with too many projects!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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What brand of thermostat did you use?
IME, unless it’s -proven and being sold by a specialIst (only one car I had, had that) -Geniune -The OEM ; German stuff tends to be Wahler, which is tricky to buy in the aftermarket, or Calorstat
I’ve almost never had pattern thermostats work. I could probably count on one hand the no of times I’ve had pattern stats work right. I could reel off my tales of dissapointment, but it would be a long list.
I fitted genuine stats (there are two) on my 325d, and that warms up brilliantly in this weather.
Diesels do run cooler and can take longer without EGR gubbins etc to aid the warmup, but they should still get to temp, with the bypass circuit etc that cars have built in
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Last Edit: Dec 18, 2022 8:23:26 GMT by ChasR
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Dec 18, 2022 12:23:41 GMT
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I’ve fought this battle with only partial success for many years with my A6 TDI (2.5 straight 5 flavour from the last century).
As mentioned already, the root cause is it’s high basic efficiency, putting minimal heat into the cooling jacket. In cold winter weather it is impossible to maintain it at “normal” on the gauge. Ragging it, pushing hard up hill or turning the heater off all bring the gauge up to the mark. Back off or put the heat on and it drops again. If you are going long enough that the interior of the car warms through, the heater demand from the climate falls enough that it’ll get near the mark. The radiator is cold under these conditions as are the rad hoses, so the thermostat works (I’ve tried many!). The viscous fan is removed. At least I can get heat from the heater….
As Chas touched on above, the situation gets worse (much worse) if you don’t use the “proper” OE standard thermostat with rubber seal. Wahler or Mahle work but both are expensive and not very long-lived. Possibly doesn’t help that the engine is now the very high mileage, “low friction” version 😛
Have considered auxiliary heating methods but so far has always been filed in the too hard bin!
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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