steveg
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The next thing on my list of things to improve on the 106 is the injection system. I could swap the head for a multipoint one with the injector holes in it but was interested in exploring fitting a Weber Retroject or something similar first. Jenvey do downdraught style throttle bodies some with injector holes and some not and also make a version for IKE Engineering which looks good but doesn't have injector holes. I've been reading up a bit online and it seems the particular problems I seem to have with the current setup on the car are the sort of thing you see more with the sort of injection systems that use wet manifolds so I am interested to know if anyone has tried something similar? This is one of the companies offering the Retroject www.classicfuelinjection.co.uk/premium-complete-kit-webcon-retroject-weber-dgv-dgasAnd this is the IKE version. www.ikengineering.co.uk/product-page/38mm-dgav-style-throttle-body |
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Last Edit: Aug 23, 2022 8:58:07 GMT by steveg
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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Aug 23, 2022 10:56:12 GMT
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I don't know anything about 106 engines, but assuming from your post that your engine currently has a monopoint injection system and multipoint intakes (or are the injectors in the head as you say?) for them are readily available, that would be a no brainer for me. What would you think the benefits of Retroject are over multipoint injection? It seems a lot of money for an inferior design to me. With IKE/ Jenvey you will still need a place for your injectors, it's just a TB.
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Last Edit: Aug 23, 2022 11:02:02 GMT by melle
www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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steveg
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Aug 23, 2022 12:16:27 GMT
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Normally I probably would just swap the head for a multipoint one but the engine has done less than 10k from new so I don't really want to mess with it yet. It also has a hot water feed from the face of the head into the manifold. None of the manifolds I have seen make provision to block the holes off so it would mean making a special manifold or blanking plate up.
I don't think there is anything faulty with the current setup it just doesn't drive very nice. Having had cars with twin choke webers provide they are set up properly they drove a lot nicer than the setup on the 106, I've got the parts to fit a carb but it will never pass another MOT !
If anyone has used a Retrojet I would be interested to hear how well it works.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
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Aug 23, 2022 12:48:28 GMT
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What exactly do you mean with 'just doesn't drive very nice', and what do you expect from a Retroject conversion? What sort of ECU are you planning to use?
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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steveg
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Aug 23, 2022 13:43:06 GMT
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Unsure about which ECU to use, I don't think the Retroject needs a huge amount of features to make it work, if I do go for a mulitpoint system I'd probably look at an Emerald one. Hard to really describe what it's like, the idle seems to vary and the throttle response isn't good just off idle. I'm not sure if thats just down to the limitations of the single point system of if it's just what they thought they could get away cheaply though.
I'm not sure what the Retroject can offer, I could at least alter the setting and get a more stable idle etc but from what you are saying it's sounding like the Retroject might not be as good as what I have currently.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
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Aug 23, 2022 14:13:19 GMT
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from what you are saying it's sounding like the Retroject might not be as good as what I have currently. I don't know if it's any worse than what you currently have, but compared with multipoint systems the design is a poor compromise by definition I suppose, just like any monopoint system, and perhaps not much better than your current set-up. I don't have any hands-on experience with Retroject, but as you can probably tell I'm quite sceptical as to whether it offers value for money. |
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Last Edit: Aug 23, 2022 14:20:06 GMT by melle
www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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Aug 23, 2022 14:24:53 GMT
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surely the cheapest option would be a complete 2nd hand multipoint system
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
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Aug 23, 2022 14:45:55 GMT
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I concur with legend . Or could you perhaps fit a complete engine with multipoint injection from a later car, like a 206? |
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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steveg
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Aug 23, 2022 18:58:03 GMT
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Cheapest definitely yes but I won't learn how aftermarket ECU's work then ! I'm not too worried about going faster if I was a 1.6 of some description would be the way to go but thats too easy. When I bought the car I could have just got a nearly new something small but the 106 was a more interesting option. Following on from fitting an aftermarket ECU I have considered fitting Turbo so having the option to re-map to suit further mods seemed like a good idea.
If the Retrojects are really more just a slightly improved carb then perhaps a throttle body from someone like Jemvey would be a better plan.
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bmw2101
Part of things
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Aug 23, 2022 20:24:50 GMT
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i think the mono point systems work well don't they? It is just like a carb that is very well set up and very variable.
I'm fitting one to my classic mini, the one I'm using is from a Lada Niva, it is the same as the one on your car, but the inlet is bigger, I forget how much.
What exactly is wrong with how it is now?
If you want to goto an after market ecu, look for a microsquirt, its not expensive and does all the megasquirt stuff.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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Aug 23, 2022 20:30:20 GMT
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Cperhaps a throttle body from someone like Jemvey would be a better plan. A Porsche 924 throttle body has the same stud pattern as the Jenvey one you linked to in your opening post, and a good used one sets you back just £25–£30.  There are many other VAG and a few other make TBs that also have this stud pattern (e.g., BX/ 205 iirc) if you need different choke diameters, and with a little creativity most can be modified to have simultaneously opening butterflies if required. I use the 924 ones for my Saab/ Ford V4 K-Jet and EFI conversions. |
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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steveg
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Aug 23, 2022 21:36:47 GMT
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Thanks, I spotted a Maserati Bi-turbo one that looked good that might be more expensive though! I've been looking for a manifold from a carburettor Citroen AX for a while and the one I bought turned up today. It should be a lot easier to make almost anything fit compared with the original single barrel on, shame the Weber won't bolt straight on though as the studs are in the wrong place.  |
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Last Edit: Aug 23, 2022 21:47:11 GMT by steveg
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it might be fun to mess with ECUs etc, but a grand later and you will still have a slow car that possibly doesn't behave as well as it does now.
a saxo 1.6 16v is 400 quid on ebay, surely a combo of plug and play bits would get it all working and be a challenge
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steveg
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,563
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Aug 24, 2022 11:54:01 GMT
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I will have a bit more look to see what's available before spending a lot. Hopefully I will find someone who has fitted one of the retroject bodies rather than someone who just wants to sell something.
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
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Club RR Member Number: 77
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Better than SPImk2cossie
@mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member 77
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Aug 24, 2022 17:56:17 GMT
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From my days as an apprentice back at a Peugeot dealer, the TU1 engines were all nice little things.
But when the 106 went to proper multi point injection and coil pack on plugs, it really livened them up.
Much more responsive, and seemed to rev better too!
But that may have been down to the inlet manifold design more than the injection setup 🤔
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steveg
Posted a lot
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Aug 25, 2022 14:36:46 GMT
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It does sound like I might be better off getting a multipoint head unless I make up an injector mount spacer or fit mounts for the injectors in a modded or new manifold. Thought there would be a few people who had used the Retroject. Thanks for the replies though.
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Last Edit: Aug 25, 2022 14:37:08 GMT by steveg
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There are many other VAG and a few other make TBs that also have this stud pattern (e.g., BX/ 205 iirc) if you need different choke diameters, and with a little creativity most can be modified to have simultaneously opening butterflies if required. I use the 924 ones for my 