madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Jun 25, 2021 18:30:00 GMT
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Given that I don't need the trigger wheel functionality, what would be the most suitable clutch & flywheel to fit that would suit the manual 5 speed gearbox from a W202 C250DT? I believe this gearbox has a deeper bellhousing for a DMF but could be wrong.
Ie M103 (2.6) to 5 speed diesel manual.
While the diesel had a DMF I don't know if the 6 cylinder really needs or originally came with DMF.
Ideally a standard clutch kit rather than 'this part from here and that part from there'. The engine won't be uprated, standard power, torque.
FWIW I have the engine and the gearbox already lying around so effectively free. They will be going in my W114.
Thanks
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Jun 25, 2021 20:18:32 GMT
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You need to check if your gearbox is meant for a solid or daul-mass flywheel, a c250 could have both.
The m103 will run fine with either type flywheel, why don't you need the trigger wheel?
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Jun 25, 2021 20:38:04 GMT
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You need to check if your gearbox is meant for a solid or daul-mass flywheel, a c250 could have both. The m103 will run fine with either type flywheel, why don't you need the trigger wheel? How would I check if the gearbox had dual mass or solid - would the part number do it? I'll run a trigger wheel off the dizzy like this: www.gptechservices.com.au/which makes things easier
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Jun 25, 2021 21:08:24 GMT
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You need to check if your gearbox is meant for a solid or daul-mass flywheel, a c250 could have both. The m103 will run fine with either type flywheel, why don't you need the trigger wheel? www.gptechservices.com.au/ Never saw this before, it's very neat.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Jun 26, 2021 18:22:31 GMT
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You need to check if your gearbox is meant for a solid or daul-mass flywheel, a c250 could have both. The m103 will run fine with either type flywheel, why don't you need the trigger wheel? How would I check if the gearbox had dual mass or solid - would the part number do it? I'll run a trigger wheel off the dizzy like this: www.gptechservices.com.au/which makes things easier Part number should be ok, it will be 714.xxx That trigger wheel idea is not the best, I've seen it on turbo conversions where the reading can be unreliable. The best way is to use the flywheel from the later M111 engines which have a 60-2 trigger built in, the matching sensor is a direct fit in the m103 mount. If your aiming for big power and don't want a dual mass flywheel, I normally use the solid flywheel conversion kit for a vito van made by valeo. These are as big as a daulmass so also work with the later 6 speed gearbox, but are one solid casting. What car is this going into? As there may be other options for you.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Jun 26, 2021 22:29:58 GMT
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Bog standard 2.6 M103 into a W114 /8. Original engine was M180 but that's long gone. W114 never had an M103 as standard but not looking for power (hence 2.6 rather than 3.0 or M104) but boring simple reliability. It's a 230.6 which would have had 130ish bhp so the 160 of the 2.6 isn't going to stress anything. Maybe later I can upgrade propshaft & guibos to go the power route but not a priority. Will probably run with carbs, not F.I. and Megajolt or Nodis or the other one that's become popular (arduino?) to control spark. The M103 has the F.I. missing, in any case the standard M103 manifold is probably too massive for the narrow engine bay. the gearbox (looked it up just now 717 417 769 1611) already has the manual speedo take-off tailpiece added plus I've lengthened the selector rods so I can run this gearbox with the column shift - 5 speed now instead of 4. Hence the reasoning. Hmm should stick up some photos.. On the EPC, a w202 250 Turbo diesel shows 2 different flywheels a thick one and a thin one. Sticking the part number in google they both appear to be dual mass. A602 030 22 05 A605 030 29 05 M111 flywheels are expensive.
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Last Edit: Jun 26, 2021 22:36:33 GMT by madmog
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Bog standard 2.6 M103 into a W114 /8. Original engine was M180 but that's long gone. W114 never had an M103 as standard but not looking for power (hence 2.6 rather than 3.0 or M104) but boring simple reliability. It's a 230.6 which would have had 130ish bhp so the 160 of the 2.6 isn't going to stress anything. Maybe later I can upgrade propshaft & guibos to go the power route but not a priority. Will probably run with carbs, not F.I. and Megajolt or Nodis or the other one that's become popular (arduino?) to control spark. The M103 has the F.I. missing, in any case the standard M103 manifold is probably too massive for the narrow engine bay. the gearbox (looked it up just now 717 417 769 1611) already has the manual speedo take-off tailpiece added plus I've lengthened the selector rods so I can run this gearbox with the column shift - 5 speed now instead of 4. Hence the reasoning. Hmm should stick up some photos.. On the EPC, a w202 250 Turbo diesel shows 2 different flywheels a thick one and a thin one. Sticking the part number in google they both appear to be dual mass. A602 030 22 05 A605 030 29 05 M111 flywheels are expensive. Your gearbox being a 417 is for a daul mass so that makes things easier. I'm assuming that you have no clutch or flywheel at the moment? If so what's the budget for those items?
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Jun 27, 2021 15:57:56 GMT
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Your gearbox being a 417 is for a daul mass so that makes things easier. I'm assuming that you have no clutch or flywheel at the moment? If so what's the budget for those items? Something you said triggered me to look through my box of stuff and I've found a nearly new dmf, clutch and cover from an om611. I need to get this stuff, the engine and gearbox in the same space so I can see if any of it fits. Some or all of this might be the solution. Budget is for whatever will be up to the job but ideally to future proof by having a commonly available part rather than an exotic performance setup or needing to buy two clutch kits everytime to get the right parts. You mentioned the single mass sprinter flywheel conversion which is also for an om611. There's one on Ebay for £220. Is there much difference in lifespan between smf and dmf in normal use? Prsumably there's a perceived need to get rid of the dmf in vans at least?
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Jun 27, 2021 17:39:08 GMT
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Your gearbox being a 417 is for a daul mass so that makes things easier. I'm assuming that you have no clutch or flywheel at the moment? If so what's the budget for those items? Something you said triggered me to look through my box of stuff and I've found a nearly new dmf, clutch and cover from an om611. I need to get this stuff, the engine and gearbox in the same space so I can see if any of it fits. Some or all of this might be the solution. Budget is for whatever will be up to the job but ideally to future proof by having a commonly available part rather than an exotic performance setup or needing to buy two clutch kits everytime to get the right parts. You mentioned the single mass sprinter flywheel conversion which is also for an om611. There's one on Ebay for £220. Is there much difference in lifespan between smf and dmf in normal use? Prsumably there's a perceived need to get rid of the dmf in vans at least? A 611 flywheel and clutch will bolt up to a m103 no problem, also depending on the year it should have your trigger wheel built into it. Only thing you will need to check is that the flywheel is sitting flat on the end of the crankshaft, some diesel flywheels need the recess machined out by 2mm or it wont sit properly. For what your doing the DMF will be fine, so use what you have. The reason people want to swap to a SMF is they are a known weak point which will fail at some point, and on hard use in a van the life is shorter still. The SMF conversion kit we use is made by Valeo and is the only kit that properly supports the gearbox input shaft. It is also good for 400hp turbo builds....
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Jun 27, 2021 21:40:51 GMT
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Is the sm flywheel available separately and does it work with the dmf type clutch and cover? Or does it lock you in to a different clutch going forward?
Whole kit seems to be about 450 on the Internet. A clutch kit without flywheel averages £150 putting the sm flywheel at about £300 if available separately. Is that about right?
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Jun 28, 2021 19:21:37 GMT
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Is the sm flywheel available separately and does it work with the dmf type clutch and cover? Or does it lock you in to a different clutch going forward? Whole kit seems to be about 450 on the Internet. A clutch kit without flywheel averages £150 putting the sm flywheel at about £300 if available separately. Is that about right? I'm afraid it's only sold as part of the kit, I think there are some cover plates that do interchange but the friction disc is a different thickness to that of a DMF. Should you ever need to replace the clutch and cover it's only £130. I think I payed around £380 for the last 3 kits I bought, I'll get you the Valeo part number when I'm in the workshop tomorrow.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Jun 28, 2021 19:27:49 GMT
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Thanks Carat 3.6 really appreciate the time you've spent answering my questions
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The part number for the Valeo kit is 835013. If you do use it make sure it is sitting properly on the end of the crank and not rocking on the nose.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Thanks carat 3.6
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Calling Carat3.6 TLDR Does the single-mass flywheel mean nothing is required in the rear of the crank? Moving forward, since my last post I've now rebuilt the M103 engine because when I opened it up it turned out to have the early type chocolate cams and followers which had disintegrated somewhat. Also had lots of bits missing which made things a bit more challenging. Ie there was nothing in the end of the crank. The Mercedes EPC shows that the M103 crank has a spacer, bearing and cover as per diagram below. These look like this: and would fit in the crank. I haven't fitted them yet as once in they will be almost impossible to get out. However the Valeo single mass flywheel has something in the centre which doesn't fit the bearing and doesn't look like something that connects to a bearing. As below It could be as simple as the wrong sized bearing though. My suspicion is that the crank doesn't use a pilot/spigot bearing with this particular clutch but I don't want to get this wrong. Logically the flywheel and crank spin together so wouldn't require a bearing but rather a sleeve to centre things. But the recess in the flywheel takes care of centre-ing. In any case the bearing and protrusion in the centre are incompatible. On the other side of the flywheel is a roller bearing or possibly just rollers held in by grease. I wonder if this is substituting for something that would have gone in the crank with different gearbox with a longer gearbox shaft....
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Last Edit: Mar 5, 2022 21:11:05 GMT by madmog
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The Valeo flywheel you have there bolts directly onto the M103 crank, you don't use the bearing or spacer shown on the EPC. The bearing that is in the flywheel is all you need.
Be careful when you slide the gearbox onto the engine, that bearing is a needle roller type and is easily damaged.
The recess in the rear of the flywheel can sometimes need machining out a few mm if it wont sit properly on the nose of the crankshaft, some do, some don't. The other option is to carefully grind 3mm off the end of the crank, sounds scary but isnt.
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Last Edit: Mar 5, 2022 21:27:16 GMT by carat 3.6
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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The Valeo flywheel you have there bolts directly onto the M103 crank, you don't use the bearing or spacer shown on the EPC. The bearing that is in the flywheel is all you need. Be careful when you slide the gearbox onto the engine, that bearing is a needle roller type and is easily damaged. The recess in the rear of the flywheel can sometimes need machining out a few mm if it wont sit properly on the nose of the crankshaft, some do, some don't. The other option is to carefully grind 3mm off the end of the crank, sounds scary but isnt. Wow that was quick - thank you so much. I can zip it all up confidently now, That SM flywheel weighs a heck of a lot - reminded me of the crazy Russian guy (no not that one!) who added 4 flywheels to a Lada.
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The Valeo flywheel you have there bolts directly onto the M103 crank, you don't use the bearing or spacer shown on the EPC. The bearing that is in the flywheel is all you need. Be careful when you slide the gearbox onto the engine, that bearing is a needle roller type and is easily damaged. The recess in the rear of the flywheel can sometimes need machining out a few mm if it wont sit properly on the nose of the crankshaft, some do, some don't. The other option is to carefully grind 3mm off the end of the crank, sounds scary but isnt. Wow that was quick - thank you so much. I can zip it all up confidently now, That SM flywheel weighs a heck of a lot - reminded me of the crazy Russian guy (no not that one!) who added 4 flywheels to a Lada. You can machine them down quite alot if your not using the trigger wheel on the back. I machine the face down flat for the 606 builds too, takes even more weight off. You can see a flat one in this vid:
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Last Edit: Mar 5, 2022 21:51:46 GMT by carat 3.6
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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How much do you take off the front of the flywheel? Is it the logical 'remove the trigger wheel part' or do you cut into the curve near the face at the front?
When you remove the lip to the rear, wouldn't it throw out the position of the clutch cover plate?
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How much do you take off the front of the flywheel? Is it the logical 'remove the trigger wheel part' or do you cut into the curve near the face at the front? When you remove the lip to the rear, wouldn't it throw out the position of the clutch cover plate? Yep just machine off the trigger wheel, there's quite alot of it! Regarding machining the face of it flat, we do this so the flywheel can take a sachs 765 cover plate. Those are rated to take over 600nm and a must for big hp engines, the weight saving is just a bonus.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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