thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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Hello folks. I recently bought a Fiat 238-based camper. Lovely!  At the moment, I'm engaged in making things a bit more up-to-date. One of my first priorities was to replace the originally fitted tyres, which were cracking due to age - allegedly fitted 'Before 1990', according to the chap at the tyre place. I knew that the original tyres had inner tubes, and in my naivety assumed that the tyre shop would just fit the new tyres without tubes and that that would be dandy. Predictably, things didn't work out like that, and I now know that it's the wheel rim (rather than the tyre, as I previously assumed) that defines whether a tyre is fitted with an inner tube or without one. The tyre place didn't have inner tubes in stock, and fitted the new tyres with the old inner tubes - even though the ones on the van were predictably described as being 'pretty bad'. Would have been good if they had been able to change them when they did the tyres, but never mind... Anyway. Research suggests that running a tube inside a tubeless tyre isn't a particularly good idea - and I'd prefer to be running tubeless as I gather a puncture on a tubed tyre tends to result in the air escaping from the tyre somewhat rapidly. I've done some measuring, and it looks like the PCD is 5x118, with a centre bore of 65.0mm - the rim is 14x5.0" (afraid I haven't checked the offset). Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I can't find any wheels (modern or otherwise) that would be a direct fit and allow me to ditch the inner tubes. I guess I could get some spacers made up, but my inclination toward paranoia means I'd rather not do that. Any advice? I quite like the look of the steels, but I'm open to other options. Not sure if load rated wheels are a thing? I saw that Weller do wheels in custom sizes - maybe that'd be a good option? Or, should I just get the tubes replaced in the tyres and stop worrying? Would definitely prefer to stay with 14" wheels to avoid having to ditch the tyres I just bought. Any and all suggestions much appreciated. I can make a thread about it, if people would be interested in such a thing. Thanks in advance  |
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Last Edit: May 5, 2021 20:34:50 GMT by thooms
1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,303 
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Later fiat Ducato's used 5X118 so you can easily source a larger but still commercial looking steel wheel or move to alloys as they were produced for motorhomes, just be careful as some used a 5X130 PCD on some models.
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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Thanks Rich. I was hoping to stay with 14" to avoid having to buy (another set of) new tyres...maybe that's a forlorn hope?
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Last Edit: May 3, 2021 20:41:24 GMT by thooms
1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,303
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Thanks Rich. I was hoping to stay with 14" to avoid having to buy (another set of) new tyres...maybe that's a forlorn hope? I don't think there are a lot of applications in 5X118 that are 14", most commercials using that pattern being 15" and above really. |
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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That does look to be the case doesn't it...
The 15x6.0 off an older Ducato is looking like the best option - annoyingly, the ET68 15x6.0 is too wide to fit at the back, and is going to be fag paper clearance at the front.
Still, these are looking like the best option. Current thinking is that I will need to either get some spacers to clear at the front / rear, or have the rims 'un-banded', and convert them to 16x5.0 or 16x5.5.
Not sure which of those is preferable! I guess some hubcentric 20mm spacers on the back and ~10mm on the front should be reeeeasonably legit? I've never run spacers on a vehicle before, but it does definitely seem to be a 'thing'.
Anyone got any advice on whether a cut & shut to make the wheels narrower or a set of spacers is a more sensible option? Don't have any practical experience with either of these options, so any advice is very welcome!
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1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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Why were they saying you had to have tubes?
Because the wheels wouldn't hold air or because they didn't have the bead retaining ridges? The lack of bead retaining ridges on it's own is not a reason to refuse tubeless - though tyre places sometimes do.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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That does look to be the case doesn't it... The 15x6.0 off an older Ducato is looking like the best option - annoyingly, the ET68 15x6.0 is too wide to fit at the back, and is going to be fag paper clearance at the front. Still, these are looking like the best option. Current thinking is that I will need to either get some spacers to clear at the front / rear, or have the rims 'un-banded', and convert them to 16x5.0 or 16x5.5. Not sure which of those is preferable! I guess some hubcentric 20mm spacers on the back and ~10mm on the front should be reeeeasonably legit? I've never run spacers on a vehicle before, but it does definitely seem to be a 'thing'. Anyone got any advice on whether a cut & shut to make the wheels narrower or a set of spacers is a more sensible option? Don't have any practical experience with either of these options, so any advice is very welcome! The vivaro/traffic has 15x6.0 ET50 if that's any use? If you need to go custom a set of Weller wheels would be your best bet. |
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Last Edit: May 5, 2021 22:46:56 GMT by carat 3.6
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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Why were they saying you had to have tubes? Because the wheels wouldn't hold air or because they didn't have the bead retaining ridges? The lack of bead retaining ridges on it's own is not a reason to refuse tubeless - though tyre places sometimes do. Nick Interesting stuff, Nick - I didn't realise that. The rims don't have the bead retaining ridges, but AFAIK they didn't try to fit them without the tubes. My primary motivation for this change though is that I don't like the idea of the bead coming away from the rim in the event of a puncture. Fundamentally, I s'pose that's always going to be a quirk of a tube-type rim, with or without tubes... |
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Last Edit: May 6, 2021 10:28:54 GMT by thooms
1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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That does look to be the case doesn't it... The 15x6.0 off an older Ducato is looking like the best option - annoyingly, the ET68 15x6.0 is too wide to fit at the back, and is going to be fag paper clearance at the front. Still, these are looking like the best option. Current thinking is that I will need to either get some spacers to clear at the front / rear, or have the rims 'un-banded', and convert them to 16x5.0 or 16x5.5. Not sure which of those is preferable! I guess some hubcentric 20mm spacers on the back and ~10mm on the front should be reeeeasonably legit? I've never run spacers on a vehicle before, but it does definitely seem to be a 'thing'. Anyone got any advice on whether a cut & shut to make the wheels narrower or a set of spacers is a more sensible option? Don't have any practical experience with either of these options, so any advice is very welcome! The vivaro/traffic has 15x6.0 ET50 if that's any use? If you need to go custom a set of Weller wheels would be your best bet. I did actually ask Weller, but they said they couldn't produce a wheel in that spec. Sad times! 15x6.0 ET50 would probably work on the back without modification. Definitely worth a look - will see what's out there - thanks for the recommendation I've had a couple of responses from some banded steel companies who are happy to look at making the wheels narrower. I guess the best way play this is to get the wheels, then see if there is enough meat on them at a constant diameter for them to feasibly be narrowed. If so, I'll probably go that route - if not, I'll look into the spacer option in more detail. |
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1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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Why were they saying you had to have tubes? Because the wheels wouldn't hold air or because they didn't have the bead retaining ridges? The lack of bead retaining ridges on it's own is not a reason to refuse tubeless - though tyre places sometimes do. Nick Interesting stuff, Nick - I didn't realise that. The rims don't have the bead retaining ridges, but AFAIK they didn't try to fit them without the tubes. My primary motivation for this change though is that I don't like the idea of the bead coming away from the rim in the event of a puncture. Fundamentally, I s'pose that's always going to be a quirk of a tube-type rim, with or without tubes... The bead will come off the rim if you have a puncture whether you have the retaining ridge or not. The ridge will help keep it on when cornering hard with (seriously) under inflated tyres, but that is about it. Some modernish wheels only have them on the outer edges anyway. My view is that running tubes in tubeless tyres is actually a greater risk as most tubeless tyres have a ridged and relatively rough internal surface that rubs the tubes and wears holes. My first encounter with all this was fitting a nice set of KN Mercuries to my Herald and immediately taking it to my very local tyre place as the tyres on them were utterly shot. The fitter there refused point blank to go tubeless due to the lack of retaining ridges, even though the old tyres had no tubes. I did argue as I knew damn well that most of the wheels in my fleet were the same and running tubeless but no.... so I had to buy tubes as well. A few weeks later I came out to a flat tyre. Took the wheel off and rolled it up the road to the same place. The owner himself dealt with me that time. When the tyre came off the cause was obvious. Hole rubbed through already and marks all over the tube. Who the hell put tubes in, he demanded. So I explained. Huh! Our original fitter gets a huge rollocking and I’m instructed to bring the car up ASAP to hoick the rest of the tubes out. I think it’s unusual to get a failure so quickly and some tyres are smoother inside than others, but definitely something to consider! Nick |
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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What nick is saying is correct. ‘ Safety beads’ do little to nothing if it comes to stopping a tyre coming off after rapid deflation. It’s the rim profile that does that. At which point the tyre is screwed anyways.
Everything about not using tubes in tubeless tyres is also 100% right.
The only thing that makes a wheel tubeless or tubed is if it’s actually airtight, e.g. welded or riveted together. Riveted stuff tends to leak, whereas welded can’t.
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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I'd read the same, about tubeless tyres having a non-smooth surface which will wear a hole in the tube in short order. Which does indeed seem to be what has now happened as one of the tyres is now flat  Really appreciate the advice, though - I hadn't realised that the bead doesn't do a great deal in terms of holding the bead on the rim. Could well be worth trying to find somewhere that will have a go at seating the tyres without the (Edit: tubes) in place. The existing wheels are welded, so presumably reasonable to assume they're airtight... That said, I have found a cheap set of 15x6.0 5x118 ET68 Ducato wheels. Decisions decisions. |
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Last Edit: May 6, 2021 15:43:17 GMT by thooms
1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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I can't help with the wheels but loving the look of the camper. Looks really clean condition too?
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skinnylew
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,617
Club RR Member Number: 11
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I can't help with the wheels but loving the look of the camper. Looks really clean condition too? Agreed, such a cool little thing. |
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I've had fitters fit tubes in tubeless tyres and as everyone says the result is flat tyres, the only time you may really have trouble is with riveted or spoked wheels.
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Sounds like you are travelling the exact same route I did. Strongly suggest just getting the tubes taken out and seeing what happens. If the wheels are welded and not rust-pitted on the bead surfaces you'll be fine.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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Epic. I'll ring round some places tomorrow and see if I can find a place which will do it (unless anyone has any recommendations in Bristol...?). Thanks so much for the advice, chaps. Will update as things progress! skinnylew - I did look at the BMW options but the offset is generally much too low. Most of the wheels I found were in the ET20-30 range, which is going to result in some pretty epic poke at the front! A bit of a shame, really, as a set of E9 wheels would look pretty delicious. I'll make a thread about the van over the weekend. It's pretty original on the inside. Very brown! |
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1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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thooms
Part of things
Posts: 96
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Right. Found a local independent tyre place - the chap was happy to have a go at fitting the tyre without the tube. First impressions are positive! The wheel wasn't obviously leaking, and it seemed to be holding air. Going to give it a week - if it hasn't lost air in that time, I'll get the same treatment done to the other three wheels, too. Thanks again for all the advice! Fingers crossed the tyre holds air...time will tell. The garage is Ron Costella Tyres. Seems like he's one of the good guys |
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1991 Saab 900S Aero
1992 Fiat Panda 1000CLX
1981 Fiat 238 / Laika MP6
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If it doesn't work out you can get the hearts cut out of the original wheels and weld them in a set of modern 14" wheels.
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Ax GTi Turbo
