madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Taunus V4s not Essexmadmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Jul 17, 2020 11:20:01 GMT
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I remember back in the day Ford V4's were put into Minors but usually the Essex variety which are very heavy. Minors were my thing right until my Lancia engined Minor was nicked 5 years' ago. Its build thread is on here but most of the pictures have died: forum.retro-rides.org/thread/62214/1967-morris-minor?page=5At the time I thought I didn't have another project in me especially as 27 years of learning and improving could vanish overnight. So I got a Merc W114 which turned into a big project which I'm in the middle of at the moment. (Or the beginning, you never know where the middle of a project was until you've finished). Anyhow, when the Merc is sorted it'll be my practical daily so I'm idly thinking about building another Minor. Reading about the V4 Saabs which have the Ford V4 Taunus they seemed to have been highly tunable and I can't find bad things said about them as engines. I can find lots of personal experiences of the Essex V4 being heavy and unreliable but not its German cousin. So, my particular questions: Does the Saab variety still fit the Ford gearbox bellhousing? Are parts interchangeable with the Cologne V6 so that V6 upgrades could be applied to the V4? I don't mean cams and crank but valves, guides, forged rods & pistons? Are they a fundamentally bad engine or an engine that can't have its flaws removed with modern improvements? My motivation is that I don't want to go the 'notch the front member and add a Zetec' route but do something a bit oddball and work on adding lightness. My old Minor had fibreglass doors for example. I've also considered adding something like a torquey motorbike engine but then reverse becomes a challenge. I'm imagining a V4 pushed up against the front member to keep weight central with a supercharger sat on top and Megasquirt EFi - kind of a sawn off supercharged V8.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Taunus V4s not Essexstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Jul 18, 2020 15:13:35 GMT
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I've done the machine work on a couple for a local guy who rallies them. As far as I know he does as you suggest and uses V6 aftermarket parts. They make a lot of power.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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Jul 18, 2020 16:10:56 GMT
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They are lovely little engines madmog ! Does the Saab variety still fit the Ford gearbox bellhousing? Yes Are parts interchangeable with the Cologne V6 so that V6 upgrades could be applied to the V4? I don't mean cams and crank but valves, guides, forged rods & pistons? Yes and no. A V6 is a stretched V4 (the V4 is the older model) so parts are interchangeable, but there are better options for pistons than V6 pistons. Are they a fundamentally bad engine or an engine that can't have its flaws removed with modern improvements? I'm biased, but I think they're great engines. They're very robust and very tunable, even without spending money (you'll need to spend a lot of time though). I'm imagining a V4 pushed up against the front member to keep weight central with a supercharger sat on top and Megasquirt EFi - kind of a sawn off supercharged V8. Sounds cool! The most common Cologne V4 is the 1.5 high compression engine, the most desirable standard one is the 1.7 HC. I have 1.7 crankshafts if you need one, and all other parts as well. If you want to outsource work or need high performance parts, I can point you towards a few specialist tuners with a track record of winning race and rally engines.
Have a look on the nicest V4 forum on the internet for inspiration, on my website for workshop manuals etc., and here for my latest V4 MFI and EFI projects.
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Last Edit: Jul 18, 2020 16:13:39 GMT by melle
www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Taunus V4s not Essexmadmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Jul 18, 2020 19:23:17 GMT
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Thanks Stealthstylz & Melle,
I'm going to have a look at those websites and your engine thread now. Also as I'd never heard of Speeduino I'll educate myself on that just out of curiosity.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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Jul 18, 2020 20:43:02 GMT
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If you're after performance you'll probably want a 1.7 crank. Finding a 1.5 engine in the UK should be no problem; if you're doing a full rebuild, buying a 1.5 engine and a separate 1.7 crank will perhaps be easier than finding a complete 1.7. Nothing wrong with a 1.5 by the way. If you get stuck for an engine let me know, I currently have about a dozen V4s in stock in my workshop in NL. Not sure I'll be going there this year though, don't really feel like travelling at the moment. I have a limited parts stock in Bath.
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Last Edit: Jul 18, 2020 20:43:30 GMT by melle
www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Taunus V4s not Essexmadmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Jul 19, 2020 23:56:21 GMT
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If you're after performance you'll probably want a 1.7 crank. Finding a 1.5 engine in the UK should be no problem; if you're doing a full rebuild, buying a 1.5 engine and a separate 1.7 crank will perhaps be easier than finding a complete 1.7. Nothing wrong with a 1.5 by the way. If you get stuck for an engine let me know, I currently have about a dozen V4s in stock in my workshop in NL. Not sure I'll be going there this year though, don't really feel like travelling at the moment. I have a limited parts stock in Bath. Presumably the 1.7 crank turns a 1.5 block into a 1.7? I still have so much to do with my old Merc so can't start on another project. I'm just the churning it around in my head stage to take my mind off all the cleaning up of the Merc underside. When you're in NL next year, let me know the price of a V4 though. Probably a stupid question but I think you would know the answer, has anyone ever cut down the 24V Cosworth heads & made cams to fit on the V4?
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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Presumably the 1.7 crank turns a 1.5 block into a 1.7? Yes, only the crank and pistons are different, con rods are identical (also the same as V6). Heads can be modified with the bigger V6 valves. Probably a stupid question but I think you would know the answer, has anyone ever cut down the 24V Cosworth heads & made cams to fit on the V4? Not a stupid question at all! Apparently someone in Sweden's doing just that, but I have no idea what they do with the cams, as the V4 only has one cam, which is in the block. If you message me your email address I can send you some reading material to whet your appetite. The Saab Sport and Rally Catalogue, which includes a tuning manual (chapter 6), can be downloaded here. I normally bring a load of parts over to the UK by the end of the summer each year, and engines if there's any demand. Prices vary heavily depending on spec, so just give me a shout when you know what you want.
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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another option would be one of the 1.0 3cyl turbo engines at up to 140hp in stock form, I know there are a few in mini's not seen one in a minor though.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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They don't sound half as cool as a V4!
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Taunus V4s not Essexmadmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Thanks Kevins it's a good idea you have there. I'm with Melle on this though. There's no logic to it I just like the V4 sound. I had a Lancia/Fiat powered Minor for 27 years and learned through trial and error until that car was perfect for me. The Lancia/ Fiat TC just fits between the firewall and front of the car as it is short. There are still Fiat engines evolved from the old design that would still fit but are fwd. Or, you can notch into the structural front member to make more space. Or you can put another front member in the footwell behind the original and cut the centre out which allows Ford Zetecs to fit. This is what JLH does. The really quick Minors have cut even more out and partially space-framed to pull the engine back even further into the cabin. Anyhow when it was stolen (never recovered) I went through quite a crisis as I'm too old to recreate what I had made over again. Also with a baby daughter a Minor wasn't practical any more. Liking the '60s aesthetic I got a '60s Mercedes which would be a practical everyday classic. That turned into a project too since they are real rust traps. When I finish this post I am off outside to carry on stripping the floor to find the hidden grot I need to weld. Being just like everyone else on here, to take my mind off my project I think of other fantasy projects and put quite a bit of thinking time in too. The V4s sound wonderful and that's the clincher for me even though illogical. While people fitted the Essex V4s to Minors they were very heavy 326lb!! and problematic. I vaguely remembered later Saab 96s with the Taunus V4 (2/3 of a Ford Cologne V6) did very well in rallys so those engines must have something going for them. There are already kits to fit Ford Type 9 gearboxes into Minors. Just looking up the weight of the Taunus it appears to be 205lb which isn't too bad at all. Lighter than the original engine and nearly as light as a Rover K series. Plus the weight will be further back in a Minor without chopping anything structural. Ie an easier install, just engine mounts to cobble up. What the Minor engine bay lacks in front to back space it gains in height. There would be room to stick a supercharger on top of the V4 engine to have something that looks like a shrunk down supercharged hemi v8. So that would be it mechanically then make the detachable parts in carbon bit by bit as a rolling project of lightening.
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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According to the Saab factory manual the V4 weighs 265lb/ 120kg. Supercharging V4s has been done before, so it should work. I'm sure there was a video of this one on YouTube, but I can't find it. Talking about YouTube, have you seen this?
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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avg
Part of things
Posts: 168
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Taunus V4s not Essexslater
@slater
Club Retro Rides Member 78
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Nice to see a bit of out side the box thinking. If you don't do it I'd be tempted..
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Jul 22, 2020 19:34:54 GMT
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I know what you mean about cutting the bulkhead, the x member carries a lot of the suspension load and of course cutting it also means you should really have an IVA or whatever it's called now.
The minor was originaly designed for a flat 4, wonder if a saburu lump could be fitted?
A quick search says not without cutting the chassis legs.
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Last Edit: Jul 22, 2020 19:47:46 GMT by kevins
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Taunus V4s not Essexmadmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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AVG tell us more about your Essex V4. What cc? What bhp and torque figures? It looks awesome. KEVINS I suspect you're right. JLH engineering started by notching that x member for K series. Then for the Zetec duplicating the X member by welding in a new member behind it in the cabin and chopping out the whole middle section of the original front member. Certainly Melle's Retropower youtube video build would need an IVA and while excellent is too extreme for me. I'd replace the suspension but within the original car dimensions. It wouldn't handle as well as the youtube build but it would still be pretty good. Lots of engines have been put in Minors over the years, V6s, V8s Mazda rotary, Mazda MX5, Ford and Fiat. flat 4 engines seem to clash with the chassis legs true. I had thought of Harley V (very expensive) and BMW Boxer but there's the faff of tieing it to a gearbox. I drilled down to pics of Melle's link supercharged V4 www.garaget.org/?car=273025
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Last Edit: Jul 23, 2020 6:40:15 GMT by madmog
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,758
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The Essex V4s were considered a Boat Anchor when I was a pup, first thing you would do is rip it out and fit either a X flow or a V6, interesting to see they are gaining popularity again, does Ric Wood carry tuning parts?. and does the Cologne v4 still use the troublesome fibre timing gear.
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Last Edit: Jul 23, 2020 7:18:25 GMT by v8ian
Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style. Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Taunus V4s not Essexmadmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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According to the Saab factory manual the V4 weighs 265lb/ 120kg. I think you'll be right, I'd used this as a reference www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.htmlbut being a pessimist, in hindsight I suspect a '60s iron engine can't be in the same ballpark as a K series
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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does the Cologne v4 still use the troublesome fibre timing gear. What makes you think they are troublesome? Personal experience? It's usually the balance shaft bearings that give in first, sometimes stripping the balance shaft gear. The pulley is on the balance shaft, and if the v-belt for the alternator, fan and water pump is overtightened the bearings have a hard life. I've never seen a cam gear strip, and the crank shaft gear is steel. You can get all metal timing gear sets, but I dread to imagine what happens if the front balance shaft bearing fails and the gear isn't the next weak link. In practice the fibre timing gears are pretty robust, in most V4s I break they're in perfectly fine condition and measure within spec.
In my experience the Cologne V4's weakest point is the PCV system. Apparently not many people seem to notice or understand this and completely neglect it, and I've seen many V4s that died as a result of black sludge.
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 1,983
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I think you'll be right, I'd used this as a reference The weight in the factory manual includes the carb, alternator and dizzy iirc, your link doesn't specify what they measured.
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,758
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As another thought for the Morris, what about a stout 1400 A series topped with a BMW K100 16v head, 140hp, and no issues with points
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style. Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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