Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Petrol or DieselPhil H
@philhoward
Club Retro Rides Member 133
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I’ve had 3 VAG petrols between 2010 and 2018. Only one didn’t need a new engine (or most of one) under warranty. Because they were company cars I didn’t care too much (plus they were under warranty) but still wouldn’t buy one with direct injection (FSi/TSI) with my own money - especially out of a no quibble warranty.
I know that doesn’t leave much - maybe go Eastern to Japan or Korea? They were still churning out petrols by the bucketload and seen to be preferred by Taxis/Private Hire guys in that sort of age bracket.
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What this man said. Petrol all the way. I'd prefer to pay seven grand for a petrol than five grand for a similar diesel.
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Last Edit: Apr 7, 2020 15:37:42 GMT by Woofwoof
Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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What about a Honda jazz? Big small car, Honda reliability I had a ride in one a while ago. I was surprised how roomy they are inside.
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1953 Minor (Long term project) PT Cruiser
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lrman
Part of things
Posts: 41
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The issue you have the way I see it is this, modern petrol engines are using DMF, High pressure fuel pumps and direct injection, turbo’s, separate electric or belt driven coolant pumps and sometimes both, variable oil pumps the 2019 model year has PPF (same as a DPF) so the only thing I can see you saving over a diesel is the EGR valve but then petrols have VVT and cylinder shut off systems that are more complicated than those on diesels. I personally would but a car aimed at the usage I’m going to give it. If he does the miles get a diesel (over 16k a year) or if he doesn’t get a petrol. If he wants a petrol get the biggest engine he can stay clear of small 1.0 - 1.6 as these run hot by design, get a 2ltr.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Petrol or Dieselstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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A (fairly) quick guide to what I see week in week out (standard stuff not bell ends with pop and bang remaps):-
VAG FSI/TFSI -
Early ones - balance shaft housings wear oil, oil pressure drops, engine goes bang.
Late ones - Laughably low mileage heavy bore wear, chow through oil, level drops, big ends fail, engine goes bang OR an injector fails, runs lean, engine goes bang.
VAG PD (4 and 5 pot):-
Laughably low mileage wibblepoo injector clamp design wears the head away, pisses diesel into oil, cam lobes become gentle plateau and/or engine goes bang because the oil stops working.
Cracked pistons
Ford Ecoboost:-
1.0 - just don't. 1.6 - failed injectors, runs lean, broken pistons 2.0 - same as above.
BMW 4 pot petrols:-
Smashed pistons, heavy bore wear/using oil, HGF
BMW 4 pot diesels:-
Timing Chain snapped, melted pistons, fuel pump wears away internally and fills system with swarf
Vauxhall Diesels - just don't. To add to the confusion the exact same base engines fitted to other brands don't seem to have the problems Vauxhall Petrols - just don't.
Mercedes Diesels -
Mercs own - Spinny main bearings for no apparent reason.
Premature cam belt failure on Renault engines, laughably low mileage cam wear on the same
Peugeot Diesels (used in all sorts):- 1.4-1.7 - cracked blocks for no apparent reason
Peugeot petrols - broken pistons, horrific bore wear
Renault diesels :-
Cam wear, cambelt/timing chain failure, oil pump failure (or drive gear), spun mains, cracked blocks, stuck injectors
Bored now, I really ought to do a proper list one day.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Petrol or DieselChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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stealthstylz is the kind of failures that my local garages see TBH and has hit the nail on the head. Unless you get an M47 engined BMW diesel out of the 4 pots, the later ones are junk until 2014, where even BMW mechanics had claimed the same. EcoBoosts have a myriad of problems. Servicing can get around the issues of the N47 BMW diesels, but how many people change the oil more often than what the manufacturer says, which has itself been directed by sales targets? Ford "Puma" TDCis are said to be rubbish, but they can live for a very long time with no injector/pump work with only genuine filters used (they filter finer than most pattern filters), and regular oil changes ; I know of some which have almost 200k on their factory parts. IMHO any car seen to vaguely been a 'modern classic' (i.e 2005 and earlier) tends to be safe from pricey neglect regarding the fuelling system. But it is a struggle to find someone who IMHO can read them right. I know some people claim on here they can read them, but within a 30 mile radius: -Almost no one bar a Saab specialist can read my sister's 2007 Saab 9-3 1.8t. I know one guy bragged he could read it but my garage/I and another garage (with a friend helping as well could not get a generic code reader/Gendian/Snap-On Solus to even touch what the ECU was. -As above, but slightly better ; My Fordscan lead can read much more than the aforementioned readers ; to the point of knowing which airbag sensors are causing issues, and where the issues are in the car's wiring. If you don't have that kit, that can get expensive. Other costs can build up on the older cars too. Sensors can randomly go, as can bushes and another annoying faults. On my Mondeo it sounded like the driveshaft was going to fall out due to worn out wheel bolts. Pattern parts where fited soon started wearing etc. and that's a 'simple' car. As for diesels, I've had a varied, but OK relationship with them -2003 Alfa Romeo ; Serviced all of the time, and ran most of the time on Shell V-Power from 73k to 100k. It ran well bar an intercooler hose going. A silicone replacement later, and all was well. -2006 Passat 1.9 PD TDI S : Camshaft shat itself either due to the wrong oil being used or it being on a LongLife schedule from the factory. It was fine after camshaft and no longer a smoking machine -2006 BMW E61 535d ; My dad bought this with a cracked exhaust manifold ; It drove fine but it stunk the car out with diesel fumes at a standstill. It eventually lost all power. I was told by a well-known BMW specialist it was the turbo and that the manifold was fine. An untrapped vacuum pipe later, new intercooler pipe seals and a replacement manifold had the car sorted for much less than what the specialist wanted (£1.4k vs. £320 for those wondering). In short. -Go with how the car is and what has been done to it in the past -Don't assume because it's older it will be better -Relating to the first point, buy on condition.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Petrol or Dieselstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Ford "Puma" TDCis are said to be rubbish, but they can live for a very long time with no injector/pump work with only genuine filters used (they filter finer than most pattern filters), and regular oil changes ; I know of some which have almost 200k on their factory parts. We do a lot of these, mainly Transit 2.2 and 2.4 though hence why I didn't include them. 90% are a injector fault that melts the pistons, though the Euro 5 2.2s just smash the little end bushes to bits with no other damage.
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Any engine will wear prematurely without proper or appropriate servicing (this doesn't always mean what the manufacturers recommend either) but modern engines do seem to be excessively fragile, either due to complexity, budget driven parts or just plain built in obsolescence.
When I sold on my old Japanese daily recently, it was on nearly 170k, on its original clutch, with no issues. All it needed in the 90k+ I had it was the usual (tyres/pads etc) and a shock/spring due to a mammoth pothole. It never failed me once and I only sold it on due to rust really getting hold underneath and me not being able to weld.
I don't think I'd have the confidence in any modern to match that.
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Whether they're fine or not entirely depends on how they're driven. If you're just pootling round local they will both have issues. Diesels will have issues in a shorter time period than petrol's but they'll all end up equally knackered. What I suggest to people in that scenario is at least once a week go out to a A road/motorway and give it a good thrash and get it hot. Also just because a DMF means you can drive round smoothly at 30mph in 5th gear doesn't mean you should. Even 4th is too high in most cars. If I was buying a 2nd hand "new" car I'd go for high mileage/looked after over low mileage "one lady owner" type stuff every time. It's a false economy since all the emissions gumf was added. Spot on. Only low mileage one owner car I ever bought was nothing but trouble. My 330k A6TDI has been used hard from day one and has mostly done medium to long haul miles. I think the longest period of downtime it’s had was spent in an airport car park when we went to Oz - otherwise it’s used daily. Throw in regular oil changes and the engine is still in great shape. Of course the emissions gear was simpler then and is now mostly gone/disabled. Ironically it smokes far less now! Won’t be buying a modern diesel...... Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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smart
Part of things
Posts: 134
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Thanks for the replies people some interesting stuff in here.
Hes decided on a 2013 onwards Mazda 6 Skyactive turbo diesel
Look like nice cars, ive heard bad things about the Skyactive Diesel and ive tried to push him towards a basic 2.0 petrol as their MPG seems very good. His commute is mainly on 50/50mph B roads which return decent mpg in any car really
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1998 Rover 400 Derv
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Petrol or Dieselstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Nooooooo. I've only had a couple in but Mazda were doing stacks of them under warranty. They appear do not have fixed the problem their diesels have had for years where the injectors leak into the cam box and cause carbon buildup, which then chips off and falls into the sump and blocks the pick up pipe then the engine goes bang. It's actually ace to see and one of my favourite "what a bag of curse word" engines as quite often you remove the rocker cover and there is a flawless cast of the inside surface of the rocker cover, in carbon, left in place. I think it's the only engine we do where I have to start major disassembly with a hammer and chisel.
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gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 330
Club RR Member Number: 157
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Petrol or Dieselgryphon
@gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member 157
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As a small antidote to stealth's post above, I've got the MZR-CD 2.2 engine in my 09 Mazda 3 which I think is the same engine just before the Skyactive moniker and it's been excellent, with the exception of needing a new timing chain at 106k (Early engines had chain issues, later ones don't seem to, and Mazda paid 20% towards the repair). I've owned it since 105k, it's now on 195k, 5 years on with nothing but general servicing. I want an estate but this car has been too reliable to sell.
I do feel it might suffer if I stop using it though - and right now it's sitting on the driveway. Maybe I shouldn't check under the rocker cover.
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Last Edit: Apr 8, 2020 14:04:40 GMT by gryphon
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Badger
Part of things
Posts: 250
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Thanks for the replies people some interesting stuff in here. Hes decided on a 2013 onwards Mazda 6 Skyactive turbo diesel Look like nice cars, ive heard bad things about the Skyactive Diesel and ive tried to push him towards a basic 2.0 petrol as their MPG seems very good. His commute is mainly on 50/50mph B roads which return decent mpg in any car really I'd be very wary of those mate - a guy in my old work had one for all of three months before it died. Metal shavings in the oil and everything apparently! Of course it may already have been on its way out (it was secondhand), but didn't show any signs of it when he bought it.
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Avoid Mazda Skyactive diesel at all costs for the reason above. We had 2 Mazda 6 estates in January at work with no oil pressure due to carbon clogging up the oil strainer both cars had fsh and only 60/70k miles. The 2.0l petrol is a much better alternative.
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1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500
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smart
Part of things
Posts: 134
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Spoke to a mechanic friend who has said same thing about skyactive diesels - cheers for the heads up gents
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1998 Rover 400 Derv
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Petrol or Dieselstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Also be wary of anything with a 'wet' cambelt. Peugeot/Citroen at the moment are we worst offenders with their 1.4 3 pot turbo things. <40k miles and the backing is falling off the belt and clogging the pickup pipe, I've done 3 so far in the last couple of months, just outside warranty.
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The tendency in all modern cars, petrol or diesel, to explode prematurely is simply explained.
All the manufacturers are trying to get more out of less, whilst being simultaneously hampered by ever more stringent emission regs.
Look back at the old Pug XUD, 1.9 litre NA diesel, chucking out a whacking 50 or so bhp. Quick it wasn't, but change the cambelt regularly and it was indestructible, half a million miles was easily possible. Now look at it's direct lineal descendant, the 1.6 HDi, It's smaller but close to double the power output of the original and characteristically finds it way into much bigger and heavier cars than the original XUD did. I had a 1.9 NA XUD in a Pug 205 GRD, kerb weight around a ton. I recently encountered a 1.6 HDI turbo fitted Citroen C5 station wagon weighing over 2 tons, yet it still pulled better than my old 205. So they are working the same metal more than twice as hard. They are pushing the limits of technology and metalurgy beyond what is reliable. There used, when I was young, to be a simple formula for a reliable petrol engine and the limit was 100bhp/litre (in the USA, 1 hp/cu in) The modern Ford ecoboost gets 140 bhp out of less than 1 litre, yet the metals it's made of are still much the same as they were in the 60s when a 1000cc engine would do well to achieve 35bhp, but ran indefinitely. It's hardly surprising the Ecoboost doesn't last well!
Modern diesels are plain and simple murdered by emission control, EGRs and DPFs. It's like a human being forced to take every breath through a never ending cigarette. A modern diesel is only ever going to be good if kept at running temp and around or over 3000 RPM. Pootling around at super economic low revs on short trips will choke it to death faster than thrashing the life out of it will destroy it. Running it through a 6 or 7 speed autobox as many do these days is a recipe for disaster!
ButI don't see any way out, regs are regs and market forces rule. I'm not big enough for this fight! so i'll just leave it with my mantra, any car I will own, for the rest of my life, has already been built (in fact, it's probably already over 20 years old now!) IMO, my way is green too, as i'm running cars that would normally be bean tins by now, so i'm saving the pollution created at manufacture, to make up for my car's higher emissions.
Steve
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Apr 10, 2020 13:00:33 GMT
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Look back at the old Pug XUD, 1.9 litre NA diesel. I had one of those in a 205, fantastic engine. Pulled like a train for it's modest output, kept up with a lot of (often surprised) petrol hatches and threw back 50mpg+ even with a heavy right foot. Never needed anything other than basic maintenance and was utterly reliable. Coupled with compliant suspension and those wonderful 80s fabric seats (reminiscent of a 70s sofa) it was a genuinely excellent car.
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