Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 15, 2019 20:18:12 GMT
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I love your plans for it Dez. Did you get the V8 steering as well? Those parts are super rare, here in the States. Because everybody wants them, and ( last time I looked )they are not reproduced ( Mustang V8 fits but gives bumpsteer ) Or are you going to adapt the 6L steering to the V8 uprights? I got it all with it but as I don’t need the power steering I moved it all on. I’ll be sticking with the i6 stuff and just making some adapter trackrod sleeves up on the lathe. There’s a little more to the story than that though which you’ll see soon enough 😉
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 15, 2019 22:52:07 GMT
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Seeing as metalshapes asked about the front suspension, I’ll cover that next. This bit has taken a long time tbh, and it’s not even made it onto the car yet, but you’ll see why. Now, starting right at the beginning, falcons don’t have the best front suspension setup, not for lowering anyway. I found this out on my first one. The suspension is the same as early mustang, twin A-arm(ish, lower arm is a single arm with a compression strut) with the spring and shock off the upper arm onto the inner wing. There isn’t a lot of room for shocks and they’re already pretty short to start with, so finding shorter options is difficult. The arm geometry isn’t great either, hence the ‘Shelby mod’ where you redrill the mounting holes for the upper arm to improve the geometry. Or rather, mustang is the same as falcon, as the falcon came first and the mustang just stole the running gear. The only actual part that’s different (with some caveats) is the drag link, as the mustang has a slightly wider track width. Those biggest of those caveats is 6cyl spindles and brakes are different to v8 ones, as previously mentioned. That’s why I want the bigger v8 drums, cos they’re 5 stud rather than 4, so better wheel choice. Now, for a ‘60s kustom to work, it has to be on the floor. No half measures on the lowering. To get a falcon low without entirely different front suspension is hard. Indeed, most of the ones you see in the states that are truly low have aftermarket mustang 2 front clips. That involves a lot of work, usually new front chassis rails and inner wings (they’re a monocoque remember), which brings up all sorts of horrible identity questions over here. So I didn’t really want to go that route. What I wanted to do was drop spindles. Keep all the mods in the bolt on bits to keep it a bit easier and not attract the unwanted attention of DOOVLA. But they simply don’t exist for either falcons or even mustangs it seems. But seeing as I know quite a bit about early fords and how long they will keep a basic design going to wring every penny out of the development of it, I started to wonder about how long that practice carried on. I managed, by the power of the interwebs, to find a technical drawing of a mustang 2 spindle. I sat down with this, one of the falcon v8 spindles, and various measuring devices, and set to work. The results were surprising! Surprising enough for this to happen- This picture should explain my findings pretty well- That on the left is a helix pro-touring mustang 2 drop spindle. On the right is the stock 60s falcon v8 spindle. I went for the helix ones for one reason. They have bolt-on steering arms. More about that later. As for the spindle geometry itself, it’s the same. The KPI (kingpin inclination) is the same. This is the really critical part. It’s the angle of the imaginary line drawn between the two balljoint centres, and the centreline of the actual spindle stub. If those angles are the same, the two spindles will behave the same. The two spindles also measure the same top to bottom on the balljoint mounts, so they’re the same height and won’t change the relationship of the upper and lower arms to each other. Basically, those two things a make this a go-er. As well as that the top balljoint is the same size. It literally bolts straight in. The m2 lower is larger but I can get around that without too much hassle. The major news is the height of the spindle in relation to the upper and lower balljoints. These are 2” dropped spindles. In that they’re 2” lower than stock m2 ones. But m2 are already lower than ‘mustang 1’ ones. It’s by either 1” or 1.5” I can’t remember, and I don’t have my notes with me. But it means those drop spindles are a whopping 3-3.5” lower than stock. I am left with 3(or 4 depending on how you look at it) issues. 1. Lower balljoint to mount the spindle to the arm. 2. Steering arms. 3. Brakes. Both the bearings for the drum onto the spindle, and making the backplate fit the spindle.
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Last Edit: Dec 15, 2019 22:53:50 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 15, 2019 23:26:45 GMT
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These issues can’t be addressed individually, as they effect each other. So I kinda did them separately, but all mixed up together, which makes it harder to explain. I suppose I’ll say first I wanted to keep the drums, I didn’t want discs. Mostly for looks and also cos most of the disc setups don’t fit 14” wheels. I’ll add some self adjusters to the drums and they’ll do me. The car only weighs 1100kg. So, I tried the drum on the spindle. Bearings are different. Or I think the inners were different but the outers were the same or something. I can’t remember. All I can remember is the solution was that m2 bearings were the same OD as the m1 v8 ones so fitted the drums but then we’re obviously also the right ID for the spindles. So I just bought a m2 bearing and seal kit and fitted it to the drums. So they slid straight on. I later found I also had to buy m2 spindle nuts and lock tabs as they were a different thread. So that’s half of the brakes job sorted. I also figured out that the drums are essentially the same ‘offset’ as the m2 brakes. In that the distance from the back bearing to the face behind the bearing on the m2 spindles is the same as the distance from the back bearing to the back of the drum backplate on the m1 drums. So all I had to do was make the backplate sit up to the face on the spindle and bolt it up and the brakes fitted. That was a little easier said than done though. Everything was in the way of everything else, in the end I ended up turning the backplates 90degs and cutting some bits out so they’d fit. But, I figured I could make it work. The centre of the drum sat up tight but the area where they would bolt together didn’t, so I had to make some spacers up, which I then welded on after using them to align the drilling of the backplates. The cylinder side ones were a tight fit but I made em work. You can also see here I welded up the old backplate holes and bought some new hi-ten hardware in the correct sizes to assemble everything. All the internals in and working without issue- The steering arms you can see there were a moment of inspiration. M2 arms are short with no drop on them as the m2 used a rack mounted to the crossmember. M1 ones are quite long and have a drop that positions them below the lower balljoint mounting face (look at the comparison pic up above) as they have a steering box and idler arm setup that mounts under the chassis. I happened to have some dropped steering arms for pre war ford beam axles kicking round, so I sized em up to see how theyd sit. The answer was surprisingly well. The ones I had were the big drop 3-3/4” ones, and with the balljoint bolted in from the top they’d be almost perfect. The only issue was the mounting bolt hole centres were 3/16” different to the spindle. I though about this for a while, and elected to do this- The bolts start brake side, go through the backplate and now-welded-in spacer, through the spindle and thread into the steering arm. I’m happy they won’t move or flex at all and that one hole now being a slot simply won’t matter. So bolt it all together and you get this- I even tried a wheel on and it all looks rather spiffing.
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Last Edit: Dec 15, 2019 23:32:57 GMT by Dez
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tristanh
Part of things
Routinely bewildered
Posts: 990
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Do you think moving it a 1/4 turn will affect brake bleeding any?
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Whether you believe you can, or you cannot, you're probably right.
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The discs off a American Granada would have fit. I put the complete spindles off one those on my wife's 63, and its on 14's ( I used the wheels of the same car, because the center hole in the early ones is smaller )
But be glad you didn't.
The pads are loose in the calipers, and they make a loud clicking sound when you drive slow ( I used that setup on 2 different Falcons, and they both did it. With brand new rebuilt calipers and new pads. ) It doesn't affect the braking but it smells like sloppy manufacturing tolerances. And it makes the car seem like a neglected old clunker.
I really like your solution...
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jamesd1972
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,921
Club RR Member Number: 40
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Do you think moving it a 1/4 turn will affect brake bleeding any? When I've had problems (bas*t**d clutch on the LR for one) I've found vacuum bleeding gets most things to bleed OK. For someone who has just created his whole unique set up I'm sure it won't be a problem. Noice. James
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 16, 2019 22:06:45 GMT
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Do you think moving it a 1/4 turn will affect brake bleeding any? I’ve done it in the past and it hasn’t. I do need to swap the cyls side for side so the bleed nipple is above the hose. Worst case is I bleed it with the backplates hanging some the cyls are the right way up then bolt it on after.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 16, 2019 22:07:50 GMT
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The discs off a American Granada would have fit. I put the complete spindles off one those on my wife's 63, and its on 14's ( I used the wheels of the same car, because the center hole in the early ones is smaller ) But be glad you didn't. The pads are loose in the calipers, and they make a loud clicking sound when you drive slow ( I used that setup on 2 different Falcons, and they both did it. With brand new rebuilt calipers and new pads. ) It doesn't affect the braking but it smells like sloppy manufacturing tolerances. And it makes the car seem like a neglected old clunker. I really like your solution... I do find a lot of the American disc brake components from that period to be utterly awful, like you say another reason to avoid.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:14:12 GMT
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Big silly grin here Dez.
Simples.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 16, 2019 22:47:30 GMT
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The lower balljoint threw up some issues. First I had to find a donor balljoint, preferably bolt-on, with the correct taper. This took about 5 minutes of checking things laying round the workshop. Jag xj6 lowers were perfect. So I bought some. Getting the old balljoints out of the arms was a bit of a mare. They have this big re-enforcing plate thing that runs back to where the compression strut bolts on. It’s riveted and spotwelded. Drilling the welds after grinding the rivets. Eventually apart- Cut off the old balljoint cup- Amazingly the jag balljoints were a perfect fit into the hole left. It sat them too low though so the ends of the arms hit the backplates. So I thought about that and figured I’d just make some adapters to space them up. This would effect the relationship between upper and lower arms, but thinking about it some more it would have the same effect as doing the Shelby mod would. The Shelby mod involves drilling the upper arm mounting holes on the inner wings lower, moving the mounting points at that end closer together. So spacing the balljoint ends apart essentially does the same thing. So, break out the heavy plate. Here I’m copying the first one I made the lazy way. A pair- Countersinking the back side to bury the fixings- Some more appropriate hi tensile fixings and I can start putting it together. And the spindle bolted up- And as an entire assembly- You can see here how spacing the balljoint up makes the lower arm clear the brakes. So, it’s more or less ready to try on the car once I’ve put some paint on and chucked some new bits in the brakes. But that won’t be happening until the truck is out the way.
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tristanh
Part of things
Routinely bewildered
Posts: 990
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What's the reason / gains behind the Shelby mod? I'm trying to picture it in my head.
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Whether you believe you can, or you cannot, you're probably right.
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That is some really smart mixing and matching of parts. I love it.
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Dez , because we are using different parts, the actual measurements and geometry of our cars may be different. So this may be useless information, but I'll throw it out here anyway... After some measuring I found that a Rack & Pinion out of a early Hyundai was the exact right width for zero bumpsteer. It absolutely transformed the car... But unfortunately the size of the V8 meant I had to mount it slightly off center, which made the lock to one side more than the other. That is the reason I replaced it, when I finally tracked down a complete V8 steering setup.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 17, 2019 10:10:30 GMT
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What's the reason / gains behind the Shelby mod? I'm trying to picture it in my head. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.speedwaymotors.com/amp/the-toolbox/understanding-shelby-arning-drop-changes/29324This about covers it. What it doesn’t mention though is the geometry differences are mostly down to tyres. Crossplies or bias plies, which these cars were designed and built for, don’t mind a positive camber curve, in fact they usually prefer it. Radials prefer the opposite. Obviously I’ve not checked yet, but I think spacing the balljoint should have the same effect of changing the camber curve as moving the inner arm mount does. I certainly don’t see how it could negatively effect it. My COG and roll centre are moved by the drop of the spindles themselves.
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Last Edit: Dec 17, 2019 10:14:49 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 17, 2019 10:14:06 GMT
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Dez , because we are using different parts, the actual measurements and geometry of our cars may be different. So this may be useless information, but I'll throw it out here anyway... After some measuring I found that a Rack & Pinion out of a early Hyundai was the exact right width for zero bumpsteer. It absolutely transformed the car... But unfortunately the size of the V8 meant I had to mount it slightly off center, which made the lock to one side more than the other. That is the reason I replaced it, when I finally tracked down a complete V8 steering setup. I’ll bear it in mind, but tbh I’m happy with the stock stuff at the mo. It gets badmouthed because people are using worn out 60 year old parts, and expecting them to perform like new, which in their retarded logic writes the whole stock setup off as junk. Sloppy steering boxes and work out idler arms don’t handle good on anything. Mine have been rebuilt so are pretty tight, and it drives well.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:43:59 GMT
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Dez , because we are using different parts, the actual measurements and geometry of our cars may be different. So this may be useless information, but I'll throw it out here anyway... After some measuring I found that a Rack & Pinion out of a early Hyundai was the exact right width for zero bumpsteer. It absolutely transformed the car... But unfortunately the size of the V8 meant I had to mount it slightly off center, which made the lock to one side more than the other. That is the reason I replaced it, when I finally tracked down a complete V8 steering setup. I’ll bear it in mind, but tbh I’m happy with the stock stuff at the mo. It gets badmouthed because people are using worn out 60 year old parts, and expecting them to perform like new, which in their retarded logic writes the whole stock setup off as junk. Sloppy steering boxes and work out idler arms don’t handle good on anything. Mine have been rebuilt so are pretty tight, and it drives well. Yep. That is the exact same reasoning people use on drum brakes. Replace worn out drums with new discs and then endlessly sing praises of how much better they are. They are not. Discs have one thing going for them, heat dissipation. But they are not self energizing like a good drum setup is...
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,426
Club RR Member Number: 84
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Dec 17, 2019 11:23:16 GMT
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Can't remember the proper term for it, but aren't you going to run into problems if you get a puncture?
Is there an alternative arrangement for the lower arm balljoint mounting (e.g. welding the adaptor plate under the arm and trimming the end of the arm) so it raises it up?
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 17, 2019 22:05:52 GMT
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I’ll bear it in mind, but tbh I’m happy with the stock stuff at the mo. It gets badmouthed because people are using worn out 60 year old parts, and expecting them to perform like new, which in their retarded logic writes the whole stock setup off as junk. Sloppy steering boxes and work out idler arms don’t handle good on anything. Mine have been rebuilt so are pretty tight, and it drives well. Yep. That is the exact same reasoning people use on drum brakes. Replace worn out drums with new discs and then endlessly sing praises of how much better they are. They are not. Discs have one thing going for them, heat dissipation. But they are not self energizing like a good drum setup is... I often find my drum brakes are too good and have to find ways of toning them down. More about that on this later!
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 17, 2019 22:08:11 GMT
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Can't remember the proper term for it, but aren't you going to run into problems if you get a puncture? Is there an alternative arrangement for the lower arm balljoint mounting (e.g. welding the adaptor plate under the arm and trimming the end of the arm) so it raises it up? Scrublines. But if you’re gunna be one of the kool kidz klub you need to learn to skilfully ignore them now and then 🤣 There’s something else coming down the line that would make it acceptable in an emergency situation anyway, buy I don’t want to mention That just yet.
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Last Edit: Dec 17, 2019 23:37:56 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Dec 17, 2019 22:44:06 GMT
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Well, seeing as the new custom brakes and suspension aren’t on the car yet I’ll leave them at that for the mo. Instead, have lots of pics of me using it. Went to the local ECR meet a few times. Well, It’s an arduous trek of about 250 yards from my house 😂 Went to the gathering. Actually want to the weekender in it too but there’s zero photos of that. So I went to the gathering again just to be sure. Went up north in builders van mode. Built that extension using it for most of the load lugging. Car park meet with some weird northern traveller bloke whilst I was up there. And I don’t even mean the guy in the beavertail. Put a new 4 poster in at the workshop after the fire, used it as ballast to settle the cables and set the levels. Welded the towbar together whilst it was up there so it was held on with more than two bolts! With one of my two other white wagons.
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