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Its a long time since I viewed a windscreen that was this badly bodged  And it still leaked like a sieve i wont post a pic of my sunroof then! in my defense it was initially bowloxed up by the p.o...i just kept troweling the silicon on till it stopped raining indoors. looks like mission creep has turned into mission "mission moderate jog" chris! do you ever sink on your heels and go "oh fuuuuuuu..." when you find more and more grot? (i suspect not!) NB: edits added in parentheses [ ] for clarity... [replying specifically to Strikey's post about the silicon he added on top of his leaking sunroof seal] The trouble with trowelling silicon on [ie on top of a bad seal that leaks], or any kind of paste like that is it's messy first and foremost, but more importantly it looks horribly messy once it's on because you cant do much to influence its shape and form. But a lot of those products also go off after a couple of summers/winters and then they're peeeling away and leaking again. [ I am referring only to the use of silicon as an extrnally applied attempt to fix bad seals]. I use some stuff called Sugru. It's a putty, and mouldable by hand. It stays pliable for about 40 minutes before it begins curing, so you can get it in place and shape it how you want, even emulating moulding shapes that may be missing. Black Sugru is pretty much the exact same black as window rubber, unlike silicones et al which usually cure to a very different shade or tone. So not only is it waterproof, impervious to weather and unaffected by the passing of time, it is also virtually invisible if applied nicely. I've had fives years out of Sugru fixes on past vehicles, and the vehicles went to new homes still leak proof and looking quite tidy once I'd had enough of them. It never failed in any way, once applied. Great stuff. |
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Last Edit: Nov 23, 2019 16:14:39 GMT by Deleted
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i wont post a pic of my sunroof then! in my defense it was initially bowloxed up by the p.o...i just kept troweling the silicon on till it stopped raining indoors. looks like mission creep has turned into mission "mission moderate jog" chris! do you ever sink on your heels and go "oh fuuuuuuu..." when you find more and more grot? (i suspect not!) The trouble with trowelling silicon on, or any kind of paste like that is it's messy first and foremost, but more importantly it looks horribly messy once it's on because you cant do much to influence its shape and form. But a lot of those products also go off after a couple of summers/winters and then they're peeeling away and leaking again. I use some stuff called Sugru. It's a putty, and mouldable by hand. It stays pliable for about 40 minutes before it begins curing, so you can get it in place and shape it how you want, even emulating moulding shapes that may be missing. Black Sugru is pretty much the exact same black as window rubber, unlike silicones et al which usually cure to a very different shade or tone. So not only is it waterproof, impervious to weather and unaffected by the passing of time, it is also virtually invisible if applied nicely. I've had fives years out of Sugru fixes on past vehicles, and the vehicles went to new homes still leak proof and looking quite tidy once I'd had enough of them. It never failed in any way, once applied. Great stuff. Not a problem - people like you have kept me in business for years - because what's an acceptable fix in your book is a bodge in other peoples books and when the car changes owners the new owner will want the job sorted properly and although the vehicle restoration trade hates bodges of any kind it actually physically thrives on them - don't get me wrong Pete / Tim I'm far from knocking what is right for you - could be that its an easy fix / more economical / temporary fix that keeps working hence becoming permanent or the satisfaction & convenience of sorting the job yourself - but others will have different / higher standards - the vast majority of stop gap fixes lead to more work at the end of the day and this car in particular is a perfect example of that - there is quite an extensive list of water damaged parts / interior trim / ply floor / veneer dashboard etc along with extensive surface rust damage that equates to quite a few thousand pounds worth of work & parts all for the sake of replacing the front & rear windscreen rubbers which equates to small investment of a few hundred quid - The bodge vs doing it right equation is quite staggering sometimes but long may the bodgers reign - I will never be out of work* Troll & keyboard warrior disclaimer * Not implied or intended in a smug manner or in a 'I know better' context what so ever - its just fact |
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Last Edit: Nov 23, 2019 7:33:03 GMT by Deleted
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The trouble with trowelling silicon on, or any kind of paste like that is it's messy first and foremost, but more importantly it looks horribly messy once it's on because you cant do much to influence its shape and form. But a lot of those products also go off after a couple of summers/winters and then they're peeeling away and leaking again. I use some stuff called Sugru. It's a putty, and mouldable by hand. It stays pliable for about 40 minutes before it begins curing, so you can get it in place and shape it how you want, even emulating moulding shapes that may be missing. Black Sugru is pretty much the exact same black as window rubber, unlike silicones et al which usually cure to a very different shade or tone. So not only is it waterproof, impervious to weather and unaffected by the passing of time, it is also virtually invisible if applied nicely. I've had fives years out of Sugru fixes on past vehicles, and the vehicles went to new homes still leak proof and looking quite tidy once I'd had enough of them. It never failed in any way, once applied. Great stuff. Not a problem - people like you have kept me in business for years - because what's an acceptable fix in your book is a bodge in other peoples books and when the car changes owners the new owner will want the job sorted properly and although the vehicle restoration trade hates bodges of any kind it actually physically thrives on them - don't get me wrong Pete / Tim I'm far from knocking what is right for you - could be that its an easy fix / more economical / temporary fix that keeps working hence becoming permanent or the satisfaction & convenience of sorting the job yourself - but others will have different / higher standards - the vast majority of stop gap fixes lead to more work at the end of the day and this car in particular is a perfect example of that - there is quite an extensive list of water damaged parts / interior trim / ply floor / veneer dashboard etc along with extensive surface rust damage that equates to quite a few thousand pounds worth of work & parts all for the sake of replacing the front & rear windscreen rubbers which equates to small investment of a few hundred quid - The bodge vs doing it right equation is quite staggering sometimes but long may the bodgers reign - I will never be out of work* Troll & keyboard warrior disclaimer * Not implied or intended in a smug manner or in a 'I know better' context what so ever - its just fact Your absolutely right, however, I always think that the bodges have keep the car around long enough for me to restore it properly. I see a lot of people on the mini forum in on moaning about the previous owners welding or lack of but if they hadn't lashed it up to keep it on the road it would have been scrapped years ago. |
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Not a problem - people like you have kept me in business for years - because what's an acceptable fix in your book is a bodge in other peoples books and when the car changes owners the new owner will want the job sorted properly and although the vehicle restoration trade hates bodges of any kind it actually physically thrives on them - don't get me wrong Pete / Tim I'm far from knocking what is right for you - could be that its an easy fix / more economical / temporary fix that keeps working hence becoming permanent or the satisfaction & convenience of sorting the job yourself - but others will have different / higher standards - the vast majority of stop gap fixes lead to more work at the end of the day and this car in particular is a perfect example of that - there is quite an extensive list of water damaged parts / interior trim / ply floor / veneer dashboard etc along with extensive surface rust damage that equates to quite a few thousand pounds worth of work & parts all for the sake of replacing the front & rear windscreen rubbers which equates to small investment of a few hundred quid - The bodge vs doing it right equation is quite staggering sometimes but long may the bodgers reign - I will never be out of work* Troll & keyboard warrior disclaimer * Not implied or intended in a smug manner or in a 'I know better' context what so ever - its just fact Your absolutely right, however, I always think that the bodges have keep the car around long enough for me to restore it properly. I see a lot of people on the mini forum in on moaning about the previous owners welding or lack of but if they hadn't lashed it up to keep it on the road it would have been scrapped years ago. In some cases yes and others absolutely not - I have seen many a car go to an early grave due to ill thought out bodges / short cuts / that will do for now measures & tactics - and its not the first time that I have put time into stripping a car for restoration before realising that the owners budget (including a sensible contingency) will never cover the amount of hidden work / work uncovered due to bodges and the expense required to correct it either (I currently have such a vehicle in storage at present) There will be a lump of vehicle owners on here too that have put far more time & expense into a motor than originally intended in correcting other owners bodges - well intended or not - In some cases it may well have maintained / kept the car on the road but at what cost has life long experience very much dictates that the difference between the bodge and doing it correctly in the first place is quite often negligible both in time & expense and more often that not the bodge just happens to be more expensive both in time & expense - although in reality its normally not the bodger's wallet that suffers the most! |
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Last Edit: Nov 23, 2019 8:48:20 GMT by Deleted
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This stuff...  Last time I used it was on a beat up Scimitar I bought for peanuts that had a whole heap of issues. One of which was a huge chunk of entirely absent windscreen rubber on the driver's pillar. It rained on the car's first journey home with me, so it rained on my leg. That's how big the gap was. There were a tonne of things to sort out on the car, many of which took priority to make the car run right, and to make sure it was safe and worth getting stuck in to. I filled the windscreen rubber gap with Sugru and continued working on the car for another two years. The Sugru fix was so good, invisible and watertight that it didnt need thinking about again while I did everything else. Then when I was ready, I bought a new windscreen rubber from the Scimitar parts suppliers and swapped the old one out for the nice tidy new one. It's a really useful product. I always have some in stock. |
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Looking at that prior to the later posts I did think why don't people fix window leaks.
Leaking window rubbers are one of the fastest ways of destroying a car as it usually wrecks seats, carpets, trim, headlining etc as well as rotting the cars from inside out.
Maybe the average owner is scared of removing the glass as it seems such a major task, though in reality it's pretty easy.
My first car I had both front and rear screen out for new/cleaned up rubbers and re sealed as one of the first jobs I ever tackled.
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Looking at that prior to the later posts I did think why don't people fix window leaks. Leaking window rubbers are one of the fastest ways of destroying a car as it usually wrecks seats, carpets, trim, headlining etc as well as rotting the cars from inside out. Maybe the average owner is scared of removing the glass as it seems such a major task, though in reality it's pretty easy. My first car I had both front and rear screen out for new/cleaned up rubbers and re sealed as one of the first jobs I ever tackled. Off the top of my head, I can imagine three possible scenarios... 1. Maybe the cant afford it and they want to try and do the best they can until they can afford it. 2. Maybe they cant locate the right rubber seal. Perhaps it was a moulding that was out of production, or it's a really obscure vehicle, or they don't have access to the internet and are struggling to find suppliers. 3. Maybe they are prioritising other things and planning to get around to it. 4. (Bonus one) maybe they have certain limitations or disabilities. They love their old vehicles but struggle with maintenance things and just do the best they can if they cant find anyone to help them. There are probably lots of reasons. One of my favourite games with cheap old bangers is trying to reverse-rationalise any P.O's bodges I find on cars I've bought. Things that seemingly make no sense will have been the result of a set of factors that meant however bizarre the bodge there would have been circumstances that made it seem like the best solution at the time. |
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Nov 23, 2019 10:42:19 GMT
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I guess another issue is that Grumpy is being paid by customers for his work.
If I wired a house in extension lead flex, there isn’t actually anything wrong with that* but the next time someone removed a socket and saw it they would question my integrity/ability
Though I could argue and prove that a properly designed system is absolutely fine like that, it is much easier to work to the industry standards and not put myself in that position.
*if the cables were sized correctly, they actually have a higher current carrying capacity, but are also more expensive
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,832
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Nov 23, 2019 11:13:33 GMT
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Silicone,(normally Bathroom silicone too) In my opinion is the worst thing to use on any metal, mainly because silicone has a smell? ever wondered what that smell is, its normally acetic acid which, as you all know any acid will corrode most metals, so seam sealing with an acid based sealant is not the best soloution. I have had cars where you could peel off the silicon that had been applied over the weld and the weld would come away with it, almost a zip fastener to remove repair panels
As for sealing between chassis and floor boards, I have used gutter/lead mastic, its grey/black and never seems to go off solid, just skin over.
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style.
Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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Nov 23, 2019 11:29:11 GMT
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I guess another issue is that Grumpy is being paid by customers for his work. I guess that's the point, made succinctly. It's not a professional vintage car restoration forum. There's all sorts of stuff embraced here on Retrorides, that's what makes it what it is. Lets face it if a law was passed that said everything had to be done to a professional restorer's standards in a professional restorer's workshop using only sanctioned processes and materials, that would alienate about 95% of the audience here. There would be no Retrorides, or at least not in the broad church form we all know and love. Grumpy's work is excellent and exceeds the highest standards. The tributes paid unanimously to it on RR are well deserved. It's also true to say that many of us are not pursuing that particular narrow channel of professional vintage car restoration. Its a hobby not a business for the vast majority. Outright lunacy of the kind that sees cars patched up with newspaper and Polyfiller is not what RR is about, obviously. Just about everyone here is sensible and careful about what they do, and the place thrives on discussion, different ideas, and different interests. It's the openess to discussion in a non-judgmental fashion that makes this place great. "And long may it continue"  There's an old Chinese proverb, I forget what it is now, but something about mastery only truly being achieved when humility is fully embraced, or, or... "mastery is... something... something ...Sugru!". I've forgotten now. It's very good though. |
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Nov 23, 2019 12:44:29 GMT
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Nice proverb. Sugru - pmsl.
(I'm just off to scrape the silicone out of my windscreen  )
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Nov 23, 2019 13:50:30 GMT
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just to put my "lash up" into context :-). car = £300...new sunroof seal = £35 , more than 10% of purchase price puts it very low down the "important list" of needs. aesthetically it doesn't look too bad (if you are standing with your back to it). once i had gone over it with sikaflex (bought for another job) it has been 100% watertight , so personally i don't think i will have any ongoing corrosion issues. i feel all sunroofs are the work of beelzebub himself and have never had one that didn't leak or promote corrosion of the panel around it!
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating
'80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip
'97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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Nov 23, 2019 13:52:11 GMT
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Looking at that prior to the later posts I did think why don't people fix window leaks. Leaking window rubbers are one of the fastest ways of destroying a car as it usually wrecks seats, carpets, trim, headlining etc as well as rotting the cars from inside out. Maybe the average owner is scared of removing the glass as it seems such a major task, though in reality it's pretty easy. My first car I had both front and rear screen out for new/cleaned up rubbers and re sealed as one of the first jobs I ever tackled. Off the top of my head, I can imagine three possible scenarios... 1. Maybe the cant afford it and they want to try and do the best they can until they can afford it. 2. Maybe they cant locate the right rubber seal. Perhaps it was a moulding that was out of production, or it's a really obscure vehicle, or they don't have access to the internet and are struggling to find suppliers. 3. Maybe they are prioritising other things and planning to get around to it. 4. (Bonus one) maybe they have certain limitations or disabilities. They love their old vehicles but struggle with maintenance things and just do the best they can if they cant find anyone to help them. There are probably lots of reasons. One of my favourite games with cheap old bangers is trying to reverse-rationalise any P.O's bodges I find on cars I've bought. Things that seemingly make no sense will have been the result of a set of factors that meant however bizarre the bodge there would have been circumstances that made it seem like the best solution at the time. Tim, (and any other readers) I think you misunderstood my post. Using your points above; 1. they cant afford not to fix it as it will cause tenfold worse problems if they leave it leaking. Your Sugru is a perfectly acceptable fix as it worked and looked good. I did not replace my window rubbers at first as like you state I could not afford it, I took them out, cleaned them up and refitted with new mastic ( I eventually replaced them as the new mastic was not a permanent cure). 2. see your point about using a decent repair - sugru/arbomast etc. 3. not much more important than keeping a car weathertight I don't think - apart from new tyres or brakes. 4. see my comment about people think its a massive job and beyond them - though in reality it's actually a fairly easy job on the majority of older cars. What I meant was people tend to leave things like leaks but still spend lots of money on either other parts or maybe going to a car event for a weekend whereas the money would be better spent on weatherproofing the car. An analogy would be people leave house roofs as they are high up and a bit scary to get to but will redecorate a bedroom below even though the roof is leaking and rotting the ceiling. The decorating money would be better spent on fixing the roof - even if it's by a roofer. Sorry if my original post may have come over as condescending? |
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Nov 23, 2019 13:52:23 GMT
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I guess another issue is that Grumpy is being paid by customers for his work. I guess that's the point, made succinctly. It's not a professional vintage car restoration forum. There's all sorts of stuff embraced here on Retrorides, that's what makes it what it is. Lets face it if a law was passed that said everything had to be done to a professional restorer's standards in a professional restorer's workshop using only sanctioned processes and materials, that would alienate about 95% of the audience here. There would be no Retrorides, or at least not in the broad church form we all know and love. Grumpy's work is excellent and exceeds the highest standards. The tributes paid unanimously to it on RR are well deserved. It's also true to say that many of us are not pursuing that particular narrow channel of professional vintage car restoration. Its a hobby not a business for the vast majority. Outright lunacy of the kind that sees cars patched up with newspaper and Polyfiller is not what RR is about, obviously. Just about everyone here is sensible and careful about what they do, and the place thrives on discussion, different ideas, and different interests. It's the openess to discussion in a non-judgmental fashion that makes this place great. "And long may it continue" There's an old Chinese proverb, I forget what it is now, but something about mastery only truly being achieved when humility is fully embraced, or, or... "mastery is... something... something ...Sugru!". I've forgotten now. It's very good though. Tim - Not into the Chinese proverb thing but everything else you state is completely correct - I'm on here because I enjoy it and it's a very diverse forum - I'd also like to share my skills has widely has I can ('it would be a great loss if they just died with me' is what my very talented old school foreman whom taught me everything he knew always said) whilst I also absorb the skills & knowhow of others everyday is very much a school day - on a completely different subject RR also creates some interest in a little known vehicle brand & its models that would otherwise be lost to small group of aging anorak wearing Jowett owners |
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Nov 23, 2019 13:55:40 GMT
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Sorry if my original post may have come over as condescending? No, it didn't at all. My reply wasn't meant to suggest if did either. I think we may have entered a swirling vortex of miscommunication here, so I'm bowing out of this discussion again... aside from assuring you that nothing of the sort even crossed my mind old chap. |
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Nov 23, 2019 14:11:36 GMT
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"Maybe the average owner is scared of removing the glass as it seems such a major task, though in reality it's pretty easy." - Blackpop.
Final comment from me... this line ^ rang very true for me. One of my first ever experiences of replacing a windscreen was on my much loved old Bedford CF2. The windcsreen rubber was shot to pieces and as this was about 13 years ago and the very very beginning of my short and erratic adventure into old cars, I did attempt to get by with a healthy slathering of tube silicon over the top.
Naturally that all peeled off again and generally looked like hell, but at the time a proper windscreen rubber for a CF2 was many hundreds of pounds. I forget the exact amount but enough to make a strong man cry (many seemingly simple parts for CF vans are insanely expensive because there simply isn't an abundance of stock or any aftermarket industry for them).
After a year or so I bit the bullet and had a windscreen rubber as a Christmas present from my wife.
CF2 windscreens are fairly huge as it's a wide van, obviously. They also curve at either end quite dramatically for an 80's vehicle (a carry-over from an earlier model).
Getting it out was okay, but I was working alone and it was quite a terrifying prospect to lever it out. If the windscreen rubbers were costly, windscreen glass may as well have been Elton John's spectacle lenses.
Working alone though, with an unwieldy rubber, a curved frame, and a huge heavy and very precious curved piece of glass was the stuff of nightmares when trying to put it back in. I don't mind admitting I did have a bit of a cry halfway through day two.
I did do it eventually, but rather than it taking me a couple of hours as I had anticipated, it took me almost three days of trying, re-thinking, attempting different techiniqes and so on. In the end my wife had to lend a hand and it went in, but after that experience I decided I would just as sooner pay a professional to do it. Just up the road from me are two blokes who run a windscreen fitting business (franchise of a national), but they are also both classic car owners and well known blokes on the local classic and american scene down here. So they do all the classic cars round here.
I'd much rather pay them £60 to get it done properly first time in an hour than attempt to do it myself. They did my Scimitar when it finally time to get that put right, although the Scimitar probably would have been easier to do than the Bedford, I was more than happy to put some business their way, drink their tea and a have good chat.
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Last Edit: Nov 23, 2019 14:15:05 GMT by Deleted
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Nov 23, 2019 14:26:12 GMT
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"Maybe the average owner is scared of removing the glass as it seems such a major task, though in reality it's pretty easy." - Blackpop. Final comment from me... this line ^ rang very true for me. One of my first ever experiences of replacing a windscreen was on my much loved old Bedford CF2. The windcsreen rubber was shot to pieces and as this was about 13 years ago and the very very beginning of my short and erratic adventure into old cars, I did attempt to get by with a healthy slathering of tube silicon over the top. Naturally that all peeled off again and generally looked like hell, but at the time a proper windscreen rubber for a CF2 was many hundreds of pounds. I forget the exact amount but enough to make a strong man cry (many seemingly simple parts for CF vans are insanely expensive because there simply isn't an abundance of stock or any aftermarket industry for them). After a year or so I bit the bullet and had a windscreen rubber as a Christmas present from my wife. CF2 windscreens are fairly huge as it's a wide van, obviously. They also curve at either end quite dramatically for an 80's vehicle (a carry-over from an earlier model). Getting it out was okay, but I was working alone and it was quite a terrifying prospect to lever it out. If the windscreen rubbers were costly, windscreen glass may as well have been Elton John's spectacle lenses. Working alone though, with an unwieldy rubber, a curved frame, and a huge heavy and very precious curved piece of glass was the stuff of nightmares when trying to put it back in. I don't mind admitting I did have a bit of a cry halfway through day two. I did do it eventually, but rather than it taking me a couple of hours as I had anticipated, it took me almost three days of trying, re-thinking, attempting different techiniqes and so on. In the end my wife had to lend a hand and it went in, but after that experience I decided I would just as sooner pay a professional to do it. Just up the road from me are two blokes who run a windscreen fitting business (franchise of a national), but they are also both classic car owners and well known blokes on the local classic and american scene down here. So they do all the classic cars round here. I'd much rather pay them £60 to get it done properly first time in an hour than attempt to do it myself. They did my Scimitar when it finally time to get that put right, although the Scimitar probably would have been easier to do than the Bedford, I was more than happy to put some business their way, drink their tea and a have good chat. You are as sad as me when it comes to writing a Christmas list!! Thank god I'm not the only one.
I wont clutter the thread up anymore, promise.
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Last Edit: Nov 23, 2019 19:45:58 GMT by Deleted
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Nov 23, 2019 19:35:27 GMT
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Many of my garage tools are as a result of my Christmas list!
Great way to get those tools you maybe wouldn’t buy yourself, but know you really could do with.
Karl
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,961
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Nov 23, 2019 20:05:06 GMT
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I think the main point that gets missed is that when most vehicles get bodged, the bodger isn't expecting the vehicle to still be around X years later, and indeed the vast majority of cars aren't as they get scrapped. Obviously there will be bodged "restorations" but that's a different thing, and doesn't seem to be as common now that tools to do it properly are accessible to home gamers.
All my old banger dailies are bodged up, that's why I generally chop them up when I'm done with them as although I'm happy to do thousands (50k p/a at the moment) of miles in them it's not something I'd let somebody else loose in.
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merryck
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 480
Club RR Member Number: 9
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Nov 23, 2019 20:44:48 GMT
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Going back to the window rubber replacement - I've swapped engines, rebuilt carbs, I can weld, shape metal, I can even work precious metals. I'm quite handy, and have a much larger number of skills up my sleeve than the average person, but I've never managed to take a screen out without cracking it!
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)
