|
|
Jul 24, 2019 19:20:18 GMT
|
I bought a 2006 Grande Punto 1.3mjet diesel extremely cheap as I want to eventually sell my MG ZR as its getting on a bit and I want some "extras" that the MG hasnt got, EW, AC, two extra doors, and good mpg.
Didnt have much of a chance of a test drive, it was ok, compared to a Berlingo HDi we have, it was really flat and I will come to that as thats the problem
engine starts fine, no smoke, but it isnt boosting up in 1st until about 4000rpm, when the boost does come it does really strong! - bear that in mind - it IS boosting.
EML isnt showing, and there are no faults stored.
It has a variable vane turbo, the actuator moves freely, I assume that it pulls on the lever, if I apply vac to the actuator, it does pull. With engine cold and off, I can move the lever and rod just fine throughout its whole movement range.
But I suspect that it isnt pulling under load to allow the turbo to spool properly - ?
This is my first diesel, after owning K Series Rover engines for years, I also wanted to learn about something else - good job!!
Car was only insured on a temp "get me home" basis, I drove it from Mossley in Mcr to Wilmslow in Cheshire, A Roads and Motorway, and of course on that "proper" drive back I noticed it wasnt that well, I want to get it right before I sell my ZR, so I cant just drive it willy nilly to test things as its not insured but I can tell just by revving it up that it isnt picking up at all, it should perhaps be like our HDi Berlingo in that respect [that isnt "ours", its my Dads motability wheelchair car, so therefore I don't need to fix or service it!].
a couple of notes
air filter is a bit grubby, but certainly not terrible
diesel filter looks quite old
inlet pipe to turbo has a new jubilee clip, and the turbo itself looks newer/cleaner on the outside than the exhaust manifold.
any suggestions, or confirmations [poss vac problem, or boost solenoid?]
THANKS for looking
|
|
|
|
|
stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,840
Club RR Member Number: 174
|
|
Jul 24, 2019 20:16:06 GMT
|
Unplug the MAF sensor and try it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2019 20:17:48 GMT
|
I'd start with a check of the vac system - like does the supply hose have a split in it? Does the actuator hold vacuum or could the diaphragm inside have a hole in it? Then you're looking at the vacuum solenoid - electrical or vacuum side.
Do you have any diagnostic kit to look for fault codes? Underboost condition may not cause a dashboard light but still might log a code.
|
|
Living vicariously through other people's projects!
|
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2019 20:36:40 GMT
|
Stealthsylz.. Is that the sensor on the airfilter side?
Turbogeek.. Yes i can suck vac on the actuator and it does hold. The tubing i can see look ok but one of them goes round back of engine after it comes out of boost soleniod which is just below slam panel, i will need to get it on ramps to see where it goes (vac pump thingy?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2019 20:37:55 GMT
|
I only have a basic odb2 code reader
|
|
|
|
Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,248
Club RR Member Number: 160
|
|
Jul 24, 2019 20:57:09 GMT
|
I only have a basic odb2 code reader Get a proper code scan done. OBD2 readers don't tell you the entire story. Try running without the air mass sensor unplugged, see if it's improved or not. The electro-valve for the VNT actuator is also a common-ish issue for failure, apply full vacuum to the VNT actuator (bypass the electro-valve) and drive is GENTLY and see if it is generating boost sooner. But get it code read with something with the manufacturers protocol.
|
|
|
|
stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,840
Club RR Member Number: 174
|
|
Jul 24, 2019 21:14:06 GMT
|
Stealthsylz.. Is that the sensor on the airfilter side? The sensor housing is usually the first bit of inlet pipe after the airbox iirc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 12:27:31 GMT
|
I will
I have bought a vac pump [like what you can bleed brakes with], when it arrives I am going to run a pipe from the actuator into the car, I will drive up the [dead end street] and back while giving various levels of vac, in the hope that its better / and can confirm a problem elsewhere in the vac / boost solenoid system
from watching various video explanations of these turbos, it feels to me that the vanes are in the fully open position, which is only going to create boost at high engine speed, and this is certainly the case, if and when the actuator sees vac this pulls the vanes closed, allowing the turbo to boost up sooner [not happening]
on the reader, can anyone recommend a fairly cheap plug in tool that will give me the info I need, all I can seem to find is other ODB2 readers.
thanks for suggestions thus far
|
|
|
|
vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 978
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 13:12:58 GMT
|
Does it have an egr valve?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 14:01:52 GMT
|
Does it have an egr valve? looks like it, its a totally standard car
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 14:02:19 GMT
|
Right I have traced the vac pipes and have taken pics, there are a couple of sensor things that they go to and I don't know what they do. So any help with these I woudl be grateful for. The vac pump [might not be the tech name, but it will do] is the round metal thing, a small tube comes out of it if I pull that small tube off, and suck from it, I can suck air in, this might be cos engine was off though The tube comes over the top past an electrical connector into a T piece, one tube goes into the sensor - what sensor? other tube goes down the back of the engine, cant see where to, until I get under the car. goes through some heat protection stuff, then down the back tube then comes up from the back of the engine on O/s, through a couple of clips and around to the front [it exits the bottom of the pic] this tube then goes to a another sensor [what sensor?] just below slam panel then finally a tube from the sensor, to the actuator [air box just in way, but it does] I can suck vac into the actautor and it moves if I suck vac on any of the other tubes, I am just sucking in air.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 14:21:38 GMT
|
10 mins later and I might be getting somewhere
with engine running there is vac at the pump, I knew there would be there as the brakes are ok
the tube I pulled off it, with it running I can suck vac on it, so whever the sensors do, they work.
moving down, there was no vac to the pipe between actuator and front sensor, I put a vac pipe from this actuator direct to vac pump, and it pulled the actuator.
I put everything back as it was
I then put my temp vac tube from actuator to sensor, it is now pulling at idle. Seems to rev up better too
I tried blowing and sucking the original rubber tube that was on the car between actuator and sensor, seemed ok oddly. Put it back and it is now pulling!
will run it up the street later to see how it feels, if its much better I will buy a day of temp insurance to give it a better test.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 19:27:00 GMT
|
well ok I have been up the street and back, could only get to second gear but there is a massive improvement already.
when I get the car into my yard, I will be able to give it all new filters and oil, and I am going to replace all the vac tubes too for peace of mind.
I remember when I had my Cinq Sporting, the vac pipes on that were a load of pap, I used some tubing from a Ford, a lot of which I still have and used today as a temp tube!
I will also closer inspect the pipes that go to the IC
So, things are looking up
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2019 19:32:48 GMT
|
The "sensors" in your second and last pics are vacuum solenoids.
By bypassing these solenoids, you may have caused the other extreme, which is vanes closed all the time - i.e. no boost control. You're right, vanes normally open under spring pressure, vacuum pulls the actuator rod in, which closes the vanes.
It seems you've tested that the vacuum pump, actuator and turbo are OK as you've now got boost.
I would still suggest getting the fault codes read - one of the solenoids may be faulty.
|
|
Living vicariously through other people's projects!
|
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2019 13:31:42 GMT
|
I need to buy a better code reader, "multiecuscan"? on ebay? I think it plugs into a laptop and has software that needs to be downloaded or comes on a cd
I have bought some new vac tube [on its way], I have found the vac tubes go an accumulator on the back of the engine, I will see that better when I have the front on ramps when I come to service it [badly needs servicing], I will replace all the vac tubes that I can see.
before I found the vac tube fault, the grass had turned black with soot from me revving the engine, it was probably overfuelling to compensate from the vanes being open, now the car is parked in a different place there is no soot mark on the ground where I have revved the car since fixing, so things are better.
I feel like I have learned a lot already! learning about cars and engine is great and there is ALWAYS something to learn isnt there?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25, 2019 18:18:39 GMT
|
OK car has been on the road now for a week and although much better than when I first got it, pulling away on first gear is toooo laggy, and potentially dangerous!
doesnt seem to boost in first until 3000rpm+, but how does it know to boost from say, 2000rpm in other gears?
when it does boost, its like an ON switch has been activated
vac tubes have all been replaced
vac does pull the actuator when engine is started, I have not run it without, yeah I do need to try that
turbo seems to whistle
the first boost pipe from turbo is bandaged its full length [12"] I am not sure if it was like that from the factory as the clips look original, but I have ordered a new hose to replace this anyway [on its way]
I think turbo has been off, or been replaced in the past.
its a lovely smooth drive, but its this first gear lateness of boost that is a problem
|
|
|
|
Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,248
Club RR Member Number: 160
|
|
Aug 25, 2019 18:34:22 GMT
|
OK car has been on the road now for a week and although much better than when I first got it, pulling away on first gear is toooo laggy, and potentially dangerous! doesnt seem to boost in first until 3000rpm+, but how does it know to boost from say, 2000rpm in other gears? when it does boost, its like an ON switch has been activated vac tubes have all been replaced vac does pull the actuator when engine is started, I have not run it without, yeah I do need to try that turbo seems to whistle the first boost pipe from turbo is bandaged its full length [12"] I am not sure if it was like that from the factory as the clips look original, but I have ordered a new hose to replace this anyway [on its way] I think turbo has been off, or been replaced in the past. its a lovely smooth drive, but its this first gear lateness of boost that is a problem Sounds like you need to replace the boost control vacuum valve, moderately common issue with most VNT turbocharger systems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25, 2019 18:47:27 GMT
|
is that this valve? if I run without this [for testing], is it likely to boost sooner?
|
|
|
|
Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,248
Club RR Member Number: 160
|
|
Aug 25, 2019 21:04:55 GMT
|
is that this valve? if I run without this [for testing], is it likely to boost sooner? Yes, I mean, that's what it looks like, I can't tell you if that is the exact one In theory yes, but I can't remember if you will need to apply 100% VAC to make boost or 0% VAC, and also it will make a ridiculous amount of pressure really easily so you need to be really careful if you try it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 26, 2019 11:47:57 GMT
|
I have just tried it with the valve bypassed, - full vac to actuator, this isnt producing boost at all
next time I go out I will block a tube off so the actuator has 0 vac, and see what happens.
|
|
|
|
|