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I'm new here so I would like to say a big hello to everyone. I have a 1993 Fiat Panda (stop laughing) that has some mysterious engine fault and looking through this forum I get the impression that there is a lot of technical knowledge here. Maybe someone could help? The engine runs fine for 99.9% of the time, but occasionally just dies as though starved of fuel or ignition. I've changed all the simple things (HT leads, dizzy cap, rotor arm, plugs, fuel filter etc) and cleaned the throttle body and injector. Any ideas? What happens if I disconect items one at a time from the ECU, does it knacker the ECU? Great site, but why the strange obsession with Volvo tanks? You're all sick! Thank you all very much.  |
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Last Edit: Dec 3, 2004 17:52:24 GMT by MrMao
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Welcome MrMao!
Hey, if your car runs fine 99.9% of the time, I'd be inclined to just live with it as a "quirk". ;D
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Tricky one that. If it's only an intermittent fault, whipping off items from the ECU might not give the right result.
Has it got an electric fuel pump? Check all the relevant earth points.
Pandas can be cool. Any mods?
You're right. There is a strange obsession with Volvos. I've no idea about everyone else, I like mine a lot as it's so useful for load carrying (I used to be a DJ) but it also takes the kids and associated junk anywhere I want to take them.
Welcome aboard by the way!
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Peugeot 307sw - Suzuki SV650S - MX5.
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NickB: I would, but when you are pulling away from the lights (I woiuld say accelerating but it is only a Panda) and you engine stops working, the big lorry behind suddenly gets even bigger very fast.
Wagoneer: no mods, I just wanted the cheapest car I could run. When I've got some cash I will see if I can find a nice Strada or 128, I've seen some nice rally preped ones.
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Last Edit: Dec 3, 2004 15:23:32 GMT by MrMao
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Davenger
Club Retro Rides Member
It's only metal
Posts: 7,272
Club RR Member Number: 140
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Hello, engine prob,can you help?Davenger
@dminifreak
Club Retro Rides Member 140
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carb or injection?
If carb, what type.
My mum had a Pug 309 with a similar problem, turned out that the auto choke on the carb was knackered and flooding the engine. Screwy I know.
It worked on the same principal as a thermostat, in that it relied on the heating and cooling of wax, stupid idea as the wax eventually breaks down
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If it has an ECU then it'll be injection. I wouldn't think that disconnecting various sensors would have much of a diagnostic effect really, especially if it's tested at a time when it's running OK. Wouldn't have thought it'd break the ECU though - although if you disconnect new Alfas, when they're powered up again everything is in Italian!!!
Could be a fuel blockage - have you tried changing the fuel filter? Or tipping some injector cleaner into the system? Can't hurt.
When the engine cuts out, does it just completely die without warning, or does it run lumpy beforehand?
Oh, welcome along by the way! You'll find plenty of strange obsessions here - and you certainly won't be laughed at for having a Panda! (You might have "Hayabusa engine" or "Uno Turbo" drummed into your head before long though! ;D)
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Welcome to the forum, I'm another Volvophile, but believe me they're not the docile old man's car that people reckon they are, they have loads of potential to be a really great car! On another note, it does sound like fuel starvation that your Panda has, could it be getting evaporated by excessive heat? Is there anywhere where the fuel might be getting evaporated, such as by exhaust manifold heat? If so, maybe some of that heat proof exhaust tape stuff could be the key, or am I talking curse word?  |
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"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"
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Done the filter and cleaner etc.
It doesn't run rough, that's what is so wierd: it will be running fine, then no power, then fine. No spluttering, stuttering or any other in between state. Reading other posts I've seen this kind of prob traced to dodgy water temp senders. How do I check this out? It never seems to happen while the engine is warming up, only when opperating temp has been reached, often very soon after. Does this give any clues?
Uno Turbo engine: 120+ hp in a 600kg car!!! I like it!! How complex a job is it? (I've got an angle grinder and a REALLY BIG HAMMER, will these help?) How much do the insurance co's take the curse word? This would give the same power to weight as my brothers 280 bhp Saab Turbo. Nice!!!
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Last Edit: Dec 3, 2004 19:51:40 GMT by MrMao
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I was thinking something along the lines of temperature, eg maybe it gets a little too hot, and starts evaporating fuel, then when it stops it cools down back to operating temp? Could it fluctuate like that as it's heating up? Maybe you could invest in an oil cooler or similar or a different air filter (not the chav types that do naff all though! ) to keep things that little bit cooler? Oh, and a big hammer and an angle grinder should do the job fine, but you should go for a roll of gaffa tape as well if you're a real perfectionist! ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"
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I loathe to take cars to a garage, but they would probably be able to hook the ECU up to a diagnostic machine and tell you what the deal is. I would think that if it was running rich (i.e.: the coolant temp sender has packed up or something) it would be running rough beforehand and wouldn't die without warning. Judging by what you've said it sounds like an electrical fault (it is an Italian car after all...  ) - I've found that electronic components are usually to blame if things just stop suddenly and without warning. Fuel system probs tend to give some symptoms first - rough idling, slow throttle response, that kinda thing... If it is electrical then things (in my opinion anyway) get a bit more complex. If it's electronic ignition aswell, it could be the ignition module that's playing up - if that stops working then you'll have no power at all. Could also be the ECU that's at fault, and turning the ignition off then on again re-sets it (in a sense). A sensor fault would normally mean rough running, but not a total loss of power (not right away anyway). My suspicions would lie in the low tension ignition circuits, or in the ECU itself. These are just my thoughts, so if I'm talking bobbins I stand corrected! |
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Oh, and you should definitely go for the transplant! Don't know how easy / hard it is but the work would be worthwhile! ;D |
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Hello MrMao , good to see another Fiat man here, place is full of Imp fanatics and Volvoists Now this Panda, Has it got the FIRE engine and does it have a cat?. If so see if it has a Lambda probe screwed into the exhaust,its on the front downpipe usually they are prone to failure causing all sorts of weird problems from stuttering to complete non-starting. |
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Blue850: yes, yes and yes (oooh err madam)
Do I have to replace it to check it or is there some other way? My local Fiat dealers no longer have the ECU diagnostic whatsits and they would charge £40 to use it if they did (thieves and highwaymen)!
BenzBoy: it's breakerless but not electronic (it still has a dizzy). Is there any thing that can go wrong with these set ups?
I might just use the pedals and chain drive from my mountain bike. Now that's a technology I can understand.
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Those Lambda probes cost about 80-90 euros here so thats about 50 quid. I put a used one from a scrapper into my brothers Cinq 2 years ago and its working fine since so you could try a breakers yard, I think they are all the same on any FIRE engine.
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GrumpyOldMan
Part of things
Addicted to unreliable cars ?!
Posts: 182
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My local Fiat dealers no longer have the ECU diagnostic whatsits and they would charge £40 to use it if they did (thieves and highwaymen)! The Panda uses either a Magneti-Marelli IAW 6FSH or a Bosch Monojetronic A2.2 injection system. So you can try a MM or a Bosch specialist. If you have the Monojetronic system, you can try building your own diagnostic tool :  Inside the cabin, on the right hand side of the dash, there must be a green self-diagnosis plug. You connect the tool and notice how many times the LED flashes, which indicate the fault code : 12- start of fault code output 13 Air Intake temp sensor 14 Coolant temp sensor 21 Idle switch- Throttle Control motor 31 Lambda sensor signal 33 Throttle position sensor 41 No engine RPM signal (crank sensor) 51 Lambda sensor signal 53 Battery supply voltage to ECM -11 end of fault code output |
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PsychoDirver: thanks for the info. Could you explain a few points?
The diagnostic plug has three pins, which one do I connect the tool to?
What LED and diode should I use?
How do I use the tool? I've read the instructions for the motronic testing proceedure: close switch for three seconds, light is on. Release, light blicks for the tens, pause, blicks for the ones, pause, comes on steady. Repeat process until I get the all done code (11). Close switch for 25 seconds to clear ECU memory. Is this correct?
Many thanks, hopefully I can get this bloody car working one day. Of course, as soon as I do some blind git in a 1.8 Mondeo will T bone me and write off the car. Oh well.
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GrumpyOldMan
Part of things
Addicted to unreliable cars ?!
Posts: 182
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PsychoDirver: thanks for the info. Could you explain a few points? The diagnostic plug has three pins, which one do I connect the tool to? What LED and diode should I use? How do I use the tool? I've read the instructions for the motronic testing proceedure: close switch for three seconds, light is on. Release, light blicks for the tens, pause, blicks for the ones, pause, comes on steady. Repeat process until I get the all done code (11). Close switch for 25 seconds to clear ECU memory. Is this correct? Many thanks, hopefully I can get this bloody car working one day. Of course, as soon as I do some blind git in a 1.8 Mondeo will T bone me and write off the car. Oh well. The info I have posted comes from a variety of websites and pdf's on Monojetronic. According to them, the testing process you have described above is correct. As regards the build of the tool, I haven't built it yet, because my electronics-wizard-friend is away in Cardiff for studies and my electronics knowledge is rather limited (= I will probably end up destroying the tool, the ecu, possibly even the car itself). I asked him the questions you posted, and his exact replies were : 1. You have to use a multimeter to check the voltage on the pins of the diagnostic plug. This way you will find out which pins are the correct ones and what type of LED's you need (5v or 12v). 2. The diodes are of the type 1N4148, as indicated on the circuit design. I hope these are helpful... If not, I am going to build mine during the christmas vacation and post the results here ! (possibly in a topic like "How to burn your ECU in a high-tech way !!!") ;D ;D ;D |
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Cheers mate. I'll probably give this a go over chrimbo as well, so we can swap "mysterious ECU explosion" stories in the new year. Good luck and merry christmas. ;D   |
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) - I've found that electronic components are usually to blame if things just stop suddenly and without warning. Fuel system probs tend to give some symptoms first - rough idling, slow throttle response, that kinda thing...
