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Jan 16, 2018 23:14:24 GMT
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I'm not disputing any of that @grumpynorthener and I'm sure that he is a good guy who is just trying to advertise his stuff, and who can blame him. But he said, fact - they handle better on a 175/70VR13 CN36 than they do on a 205/60R13! fact! I know you are going to kick off about this, but it is just true. if it wasn't Ford would have fitted 205/60R13. Why will my car handle better on these tyres, what is the benefit of fitting a set of period type tyres over much newer tyres? In my head tyre technology has probably changed an awful lot since the seventies and modern tyres offer more grip, better road holding, better in all weather conditions, and therefore better all round. So to fit an older style tyre would seem to me to be a backwards step. Unless of course, for some reason more modern tyres don't work with older suspension set ups, or braking set ups? Not trying to stir anyone up, I'm just looking for a bit of knowledge really from someone who I'm guessing knows his stuff?
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,513
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There is a big difference between road holding and handling. Simply having more grip doesn't mean the car will 'handle' better and I think that is the point that Dougal is making. So it depends what you want from a car as to whether it is a backwards step. My first forays into oversteer on roundabouts were courtesy of 35bhp and crossply tyres at slow speeds. Great fun!
I might be wrong but I think most of these old style tyres do at least benefit from modern knowledge of compounds.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 983
Club RR Member Number: 13
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This might help explain better?
I won't fit anything other than 13" to the herald thanks to its rear suspension. Anything too wide or with a rock hard sidewall means you lose a lot of contact patch when things get exciting.
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Last Edit: Jan 18, 2018 7:13:43 GMT by ferny
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Jan 18, 2018 10:29:50 GMT
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Aargh. Order of wheels in title image above.
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Feb 14, 2018 12:47:57 GMT
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My Dolly Sprint drive so much better on lower profile and wider Yokohamas than on the ‘correct’ Pirellis. Burnouts were much better with the Pirellis though! I'm sorry, i just have to totally disagree. But i suppose the real question is what exactly do you mean by "drives so much better". if you just mean that you do less wheel spin and you can stop in a straight line quicker then, that is not what i'm after. They just will not handle as nicely. I want progressive predictable handling from a classic car. If i want ultimate grip then I've got the wrong chassis in the first place. i took my Dad's Dolly off some absolutely top notch Michelin low profile TB tyres www.longstonetyres.co.uk/vintage-tyres/michelin-tb15-tb5-pb20-classic-tyres.html that are fantastic and they give stunning levels of ultimate grip. I have now put it back on the correct 175/70VR13 Cinturato CN36 tyres that were OE on the Dolly and the handling is miles nicer (yes Dunlop was also an option, but not currently made). If i am rally driving, sprinting or hill climbing then granted the massive amount of ultimate grip (less wheel spin better straight line braking.) On the road the CN36 is miles nicer, I wonder about track use with fast corners as to weather the more progressive handling of the thinner tyre might allow me to carry more speed through faster corners. Anyway. I really came on Retrorides to show you our new promotional film: Vintage Top Gear episode 2
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Feb 14, 2018 21:51:57 GMT
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My Dolly Sprint drive so much better on lower profile and wider Yokohamas than on the ‘correct’ Pirellis. Burnouts were much better with the Pirellis though! There are loads of variables in that. If they were 10 year old Pirellis even some budgets would offer an improvement in grip!
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That is so true.
And lets not for one momment suggest that burnouts aren't cool because they just are.
A while ago i was going to race my mighty Lexus LS400 again and the rear tyres were a little thin and i needed a new pair, so before i took the old tyres off i made this film.
Well its a bit of a laugh isn't it.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:00:58 GMT
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grumpynortherner you are my hero. thank you for your support.
ivangt6 yep the CR6ZZ will be great on your GT6, for the same reasons as the CN36 will be. so the Avon CR6ZZ came about i think at about the turn of this century. what you will notice is they have given these tyres a similar shaped carcass to tyres like the CN36 XWX and Aquajet of the day because they suit classic cars unless you stiffen the suspension and dial a load of adverse camber and turn your car into a stiff racing car that is quite unpleasant on the road. Even then hostoric racing cars use CR6ZZ because the carcass structure works better with our cars.
but the CR6ZZ are really a racing tyre, so the rubber compound won't last so long. They are also quite heavy, to withstand really powerful racing cars. On the track they are epic.
1300Dolly i think the Dolly had either Dunlop or Cinturato CN36. you would have had CN36 if you could afford it.
I thought you'd like my picture, but i seem to be up against some deep seated cynicism.
1/ the top picture shows a classic car with long traveling soft suspension without loads of adverse camber, but fitted with period rounded tyres. so as the car leans the wheel leans and the contact patch moves progressively around the rounded shoulder of the period tyre that is built to work in this environment. note the smiling happy driver enjoying the responsive, predictable, progressive, handling.
2/ the second picture shows the same car however this driver has just bought modern tyres because they are cheap. the handling is spoiled because as the car and wheel lean in cornering the tyre rolls onto its sharp shoulder then lets go, then grip then lets go and you drive round a corner like a 50p piece. Its like fitting crotch-less knickers on an Irish Wolf Hound. note the sad face of the driver, he is unaware of the disappointing handling, because the steering is so numb and heavy. However he is still prepared to argue his case regardless of the evidence based purely on the fact that his car stops better and wheel spins less in a straight line in the dry- that is not handling. you have either bought the wrong tyres to fit on your car or you have bought the wrong car to fit on those tyres. Would you dress Marilyn Monroe in Nora Battys cloths. Would you buy a stereo from Bang and Oulefsen and then buy your speakers from Aldi? 3/ the third picture shows square modern tyres on a modern car where it has stiffer suspension so it doesn't roll as much, and it has adverse camber so when the car does roll it adds adverse camber to keep the tyre foot print flat on the road. It also has heaps of caster which is also overcome by the clever power steering. not the bored expression. yes it has heaps of grip. the correct horse has gone to the correct course, but it is not as much fun. Kim Cardashien (or what ever) is wearing a baseball hat.
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s20
Part of things
Posts: 162
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Would love a set of those tyres for my GT6 when its finished. I'm not sure why but they just have a nice shape to them, maybe they have a softer sidewall? I think I'll have a set of these on the dolomite sprint alloys I have and something else on some staggered banded steels. Maybe some Avons like this. In fact, they should be in the sidewall thread May I ask where you got that photo from?
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60six
Posted a lot
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Posts: 1,658
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Jun 13, 2018 10:00:16 GMT
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Bloody tyre pedants!
Fantastic drawing though
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Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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s20
Part of things
Posts: 162
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Jun 13, 2018 10:03:13 GMT
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reliantreviver
Part of things
"It will be getting fixed up come summer..." (year undefined)
Posts: 412
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Jun 13, 2018 11:04:36 GMT
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Interesting to see that a high end manufacturer is producing a 175/70R13 again. Original fitment on the lowly Scimitar SS1 1300 was this size, albeit a Goodyear GT70. When it comes to re-booting the car however I shall give these some serious consideration over my preferred choice for high sidewall "budget" which is Falkens.
A bit of tyre compliance goes a long way given the state of UK roads, as already said, there is more to it than ultimate grip and contact area. There will however always be the common belief that more (harder, lower, stiffer) is always better and that "modifying" a car in this direction HAS to be improving it!
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Current: Reliant "750" Super Robin, Scimitar SS1s - 2 x 1300, 1 x 1600, 1 x 1800ti. 76 years off the road between them! Also - Mitsubishi Galant Sport and Hyundai Coupe Gen3
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Jun 13, 2018 11:21:18 GMT
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Jun 13, 2018 12:10:22 GMT
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just to throw a bit more petrol on the fire, has anybody have any first hand experience of these tyres? Retro Classic 001 As far as I can make out they were previously made by Nankang but seem kind of unbranded now.
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s20
Part of things
Posts: 162
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Jun 13, 2018 12:12:26 GMT
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Thanks. Perfect example of one of the things that does my head in about the www. Someone 'finds' a photo online and then posts it elsewhere - divested of its original context and out of sight of the person who can tell you most about it - and spreads confusion. People are asking questions, but nobody knows the answers. Before long they are seeing *three* different sized tyres when there are only two. I could have explained if I'd known they were asking. It's like someone went into a library, ripped all the pages out of the books and sprinkled them around all over the place. Sure, you can pick something up that's pretty/interesting, but where's the rest of it...? Yes, I'm getting old.
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vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 978
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Jun 13, 2018 12:21:04 GMT
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I'm not convinced, some of the worst tyres I've ever had were Pirellis on my Mini, it was arl ower. Would wheel spin an auto in the wet, and even did a tank slapper at one point(which is very scary in a mini).
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Jun 13, 2018 12:51:46 GMT
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Thanks. Perfect example of one of the things that does my head in about the www. Someone 'finds' a photo online and then posts it elsewhere - divested of its original context and out of sight of the person who can tell you most about it - and spreads confusion. People are asking questions, but nobody knows the answers. Before long they are seeing *three* different sized tyres when there are only two. I could have explained if I'd known they were asking. Not to derail too far, but I'm always sad that one of the original HyperText ideas (from Ted Nelson) was that links would maintain a proper referral structure (effectively a two way relationship), you could see where it was cited from, so you can trace things back to their original source (which makes a lot of sense generally but even more when you consider HyperText was academic in origin). "HTML is precisely what we were trying to PREVENT— ever-breaking links, links going outward only, quotes you can't follow to their origins, no version management, no rights management." - Ted Nelson
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Last Edit: Jun 13, 2018 12:51:56 GMT by HoTWire
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ivangt6
Part of things
Posts: 776
Club RR Member Number: 132
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Jun 13, 2018 17:15:08 GMT
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[/quote]May I ask where you got that photo from?[/quote] Was just googling those tyres Not sure if this link will work goo.gl/images/MtCE5g
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1979 Mini 1000 1972 Triumph GT6 2007 VW Golf GTi 1979 VW T25 Leisuredrive 1988 Range Rover Vogue SE
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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just to throw a bit more petrol on the fire, has anybody have any first hand experience of these tyres? Retro Classic 001 As far as I can make out they were previously made by Nankang but seem kind of unbranded now. A pretty old post, but this came up in my search as I need new tyres for my new steed. Sure, they passed amongst the MOT fails, but 19 year old tyres on a car? No thank you . I know Dougal doesn't rate the Retro classics, but Citroen Classics do, and they even rate them above the Vredestein. Like CC, I've also had Vredesteins fail on me. Some Vredestein fans/Dutch guys claim that they were probably fitted wrong, but I've never had that kind of failure on other tyres, (sidewall bulge), and that car it happened to didn't have other tyres do the same over the 100k we put onto it. citroenclassics.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/revised-budget-tyre-for-citroen-d-models/RetroClassic Testing: citroenclassics.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/new-budget-tyre-for-d-models/citroenclassics.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/federal-vs-michelin/Bar one tyre test that's the only form of testing I've seen on older tyres, albeit a subjective one. It's interesting that the Federal is also deemed a suitable tyre .
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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Pretty sure the Chevette GLS had 175-70-13 tyres as well. Crack on Dougal!
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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