BLU
Part of things
Posts: 347
|
|
|
I built a Q plate kit car. I got a Q as I didn't use a single sierra donor, otherwise I'd have kept the donor's V5 and gone for an age related plate. I wasn't bothered at all, not fussed by any image and I have no plans to sell. Insurance for me is £90/year and visual smoke test for emissions. Also BRB, lol. You must have built it a while ago as you can't use the donor logbook like that now. In fact you are lucky you didn't as they would probably take the logbook away and you would have to get it through the test. If you buy an old kit car unless it states the make and model of the kit and made from parts at the bottom of the log book you are better off with a Q plate. When DVLA closed all of the local offices they lost a lot of information so a Q plate is at least an indication someone tried to do it properly! Yes you can - As long as you use a certain number of parts from the donor vehicle (using the 8 point rule) on a NEW and UNMODIFIED monocoque or chassis you are entitled to keep the identity of the donor car Cars that use modified chassis or monocoques will be issued with a Q plate if registered correctly. www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles
|
|
Last Edit: Feb 2, 2017 16:37:25 GMT by BLU
The future's bright, the future's BLU
Silver 1987 MK2 Fiesta Ghia White 2006 MK6 Fiesta ST150 Yellow 2007 MK6 Fiesta Zetec S Anniversary #279 Green 2007 MK6 Fiesta Zetec S Celebration #471 (diesel conversion) Red 2008 MK6 Fiesta Zetec S Anniversary #893
|
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,849
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
|
Yes you can - As long as you use a certain number of parts from the donor vehicle (using the 8 point rule) on a NEW and UNMODIFIED monocoque or chassis you are entitled to keep the identity of the donor car Cars that use modified chassis or monocoques will be issued with a Q plate if registered correctly. That's a bit of an over simplification and not quite correct so may wish to double check your sources on those statements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes you can - As long as you use a certain number of parts from the donor vehicle (using the 8 point rule) on a NEW and UNMODIFIED monocoque or chassis you are entitled to keep the identity of the donor car Cars that use modified chassis or monocoques will be issued with a Q plate if registered correctly. That's a bit of an over simplification and not quite correct so may wish to double check your sources on those statements. seems about right to me,use a brand new chassis and 2 major components from donor car and you get an age related plated to the age of the donor
|
|
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,849
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
|
That's a bit of an over simplification and not quite correct so may wish to double check your sources on those statements. seems about right to me,use a brand new chassis and 2 major components from donor car and you get an age related plated to the age of the donor Which is different to the explanation above that you say it confirms. An "age related plate" and "the donor identity" are very different things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
seems about right to me,use a brand new chassis and 2 major components from donor car and you get an age related plated to the age of the donor Which is different to the explanation above that you say it confirms. An "age related plate" and "the donor identity" are very different things. so we're not still talking about passing IVA and not ending up with a Q plate at my mot time my Q is a bonus , virtually emissions excempt
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That's a bit of an over simplification and not quite correct so may wish to double check your sources on those statements. seems about right to me,use a brand new chassis and 2 major components from donor car and you get an age related plated to the age of the donor There are several different interpretations here, depending on whether your car has a monocoque or a separate chassis. You may keep the donor identity if you keep the original UNALTERED or a new UNALTERED monocoque. this is fairly self explanatory, you can use your old shell, repaired/restored to standard, or you can reshell with a new factory shell. But you couldn't reshell a Sierra into a new Escort shell and expect to keep the Sierra reg could you? In the case of a chassied car, you must use the original UNALTERED chassis or a new UNALTERED chassis if you want to keep the donor reg. But that means you must use an original style new chassis not a space frame from a kit company. If you are building on a new kit chassis and can PROVE that a MAJORITY of major components came from the same donor, you may be offered an age related plate, you will not get to keep the donor plate. Insufficient PROVEN parts from one donor and it's a Q for you me lad! Just as Benzine had to do! And whether you get an age related plate or a Q, the car will have to go through a BIVA. Which an original shelled or chassied (8 point) car doesn't. Steve
|
|
Last Edit: Feb 2, 2017 23:34:35 GMT by carledo
|
|
Badger
Part of things
Posts: 250
|
|
|
There are several different interpretations here, depending on whether your car has a monocoque or a separate chassis. You may keep the donor identity if you keep the original UNALTERED or a new UNALTERED monocoque. this is fairly self explanatory, you can use your old shell, repaired/restored to standard, or you can reshell with a new factory shell. But you couldn't reshell a Sierra into a new Escort shell and expect to keep the Sierra reg could you? In the case of a chassied car, you must use the original UNALTERED chassis or a new UNALTERED chassis if you want to keep the donor reg. But that means you must use an original style new chassis not a space frame from a kit company. If you are building on a new kit chassis and can PROVE that a MAJORITY of major components came from the same donor, you may be offered an age related plate, you will not get to keep the donor plate. Insufficient PROVEN parts from one donor and it's a Q for you me lad! Just as Benzine had to do! And whether you get an age related plate or a Q, the car will have to go through a BIVA. Which an original shelled or chassied (8 point) car doesn't. Steve This is the way I've always understood it - my Haynes Roadster will be on a Q plate (following BIVA) as it's got donor parts from so many different sources I've almost lost track. The only exception I would add is that I thought you were allowed to add things like roll cages to a chassis\monocoque without forcing a BIVA - though I am willing to accept I may be wrong about that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are several different interpretations here, depending on whether your car has a monocoque or a separate chassis. You may keep the donor identity if you keep the original UNALTERED or a new UNALTERED monocoque. this is fairly self explanatory, you can use your old shell, repaired/restored to standard, or you can reshell with a new factory shell. But you couldn't reshell a Sierra into a new Escort shell and expect to keep the Sierra reg could you? In the case of a chassied car, you must use the original UNALTERED chassis or a new UNALTERED chassis if you want to keep the donor reg. But that means you must use an original style new chassis not a space frame from a kit company. If you are building on a new kit chassis and can PROVE that a MAJORITY of major components came from the same donor, you may be offered an age related plate, you will not get to keep the donor plate. Insufficient PROVEN parts from one donor and it's a Q for you me lad! Just as Benzine had to do! And whether you get an age related plate or a Q, the car will have to go through a BIVA. Which an original shelled or chassied (8 point) car doesn't. Steve This is the way I've always understood it - my Haynes Roadster will be on a Q plate (following BIVA) as it's got donor parts from so many different sources I've almost lost track. The only exception I would add is that I thought you were allowed to add things like roll cages to a chassis\monocoque without forcing a BIVA - though I am willing to accept I may be wrong about that. My understanding is that you can ADD parts to a chassis or monocoque, extra stiffening or body mounts or indeed a full cage. What is strictly verboten is to REMOVE parts of the original structure (even if you replace them with something similar but in a different place like chopping out and replacing the bulkhead and tunnel to get that RWD V8 into your MkIII Escort) The then new 8 point rule had just come out when I built my Vauxhall powered Toledo and I studied it closely as I wished to avoid a BIVA and a Q. The resulting car skirts the limits at 9 points by the strictest interpretation I could think of. But I took GREAT care to avoid removing even a sliver of metal from the standard bodyshell. I'm not happy with this rule since I think there should be some more acceptable middle ground between standard and "radically modified". But I can see where the DVLA is coming from, if you set the goalposts further out, then what is acceptable becomes a matter of engineering opinion and argument! Doing it this way makes life easier for THEM, which is all they care about! Steve
|
|
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,849
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
|
To summarise Q plates
There is still a huge amount of mostly unfounded predjudice and stigma surrounding them. Kit car and specials builders accept them more readily, and appreciate some of the benefits with them. The plate only really effects values on car models where there are plenty of other choices with a "normal" plate.
As with any car, it's the builder/manufacturer that imbues the product with its qualities and worth, not the registration plate. If a person judges a cars value on a badge, or a letter on a plastic plate, that's more an indication of that indivuals worth than that of the car.
There are lots of facts typed about the UK registration processes that are far from factual, in the main this is due to outdated information, assumptions, heresay and just a general lack of understanding. Some at the DVLA have little idea about these minority processes so it's no small wonder that people who have never really had any first hand involvement with it have little clue either.
"Now, lend me three and fourpence we are going to a dance".... and by the way all Q plates explode when the come into contact with water.
|
|
|
|
Badger
Part of things
Posts: 250
|
|
|
My understanding is that you can ADD parts to a chassis or monocoque, extra stiffening or body mounts or indeed a full cage. What is strictly verboten is to REMOVE parts of the original structure (even if you replace them with something similar but in a different place like chopping out and replacing the bulkhead and tunnel to get that RWD V8 into your MkIII Escort) The then new 8 point rule had just come out when I built my Vauxhall powered Toledo and I studied it closely as I wished to avoid a BIVA and a Q. The resulting car skirts the limits at 9 points by the strictest interpretation I could think of. But I took GREAT care to avoid removing even a sliver of metal from the standard bodyshell. I'm not happy with this rule since I think there should be some more acceptable middle ground between standard and "radically modified". But I can see where the DVLA is coming from, if you set the goalposts further out, then what is acceptable becomes a matter of engineering opinion and argument! Doing it this way makes life easier for THEM, which is all they care about! Steve Aye, I agree there should be a mid point between stock and losing the cars identity through IVA - possibly just some kind of basic inspection like a slightly enhanced MOT. My big problem with the IVA is that it gives as equal weight to having perfectly rounded surfaces in the cabin (no unshielded toggle switches!) as it does general structure. A lot of old cars, if put through the IVA as stock, would fail badly on such points. Plus losing the number plate sucks!
|
|
|
|
|
Badger
Part of things
Posts: 250
|
|
|
.... and by the way all Q plates explode when the come into contact with water. This is actually true. It's because they are made from Explodium. My mates brother's uncle from over Skund way said he was told by a bloke in the pub, so it must be true
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I bought mine at Continuum motors as they specialise in Q's I'm almost annoyed at my nerdiness for getting that straight away....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are lots of facts typed about the UK registration processes that are far from factual, in the main this is due to outdated information, assumptions, heresay and just a general lack of understanding. Some at the DVLA have little idea about these minority processes so it's no small wonder that people who have never really had any first hand involvement with it have little clue either. If anything I have stated is wrong and you know better, please let me know, either publicly or privately, I don't mind! I don't claim to know it all and am aware that all these rules are in a state of constant flux so my info may be out of date. But accurate information benefits all of us, so if i'm wrong, i'd like to know! I agree about DVLA not knowing what they are talking about too, I have spoken to several staff there by phone who hadn't a clue and gave me a load of BS. It is my understanding that there is a small department there that ACTUALLY know about these matters - but I don't know what it's called to ask for it when I call! I was also unfortunate enough to be building my car when DVLA decided to tighten up the rules on transplanted engines, requiring provenance I didn't have on the engine I was fitting. So I went through a serious rigmarole to get the car correctly registered as a 2.0 litre so I could pay MORE road tax! (they didn't change the rules and make the 73 car Historic tax until a couple of years later) Now the provenance of engines experiment has proved unsuccessful (I guess they didn't find enough "ringers") and the rules have apparently been relaxed again, so basically, I went to all that trouble for nothing! Steve
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Aye, I agree there should be a mid point between stock and losing the cars identity through IVA - possibly just some kind of basic inspection like a slightly enhanced MOT. My big problem with the IVA is that it gives as equal weight to having perfectly rounded surfaces in the cabin (no unshielded toggle switches!) as it does general structure. A lot of old cars, if put through the IVA as stock, would fail badly on such points. Plus losing the number plate sucks! What is REALLY needed here is a more commonsense approach to the BIVA, which, from what I can gather, (i've never been through one, though I've read and heard a lot from those who have) gives more attention to driver and pedestrian safety than to the engineering and structural integrity of the car itself - admittedly something pretty subjective which the inspectors are not really equipped to judge anyway, but still........ But it's true that most standard production cars built before about 1990 would fail the current BIVA on things that don't cause the slightest concern to anyone inside or outside them in real life. What is needed is an approach that says, "if it had it when new (whenever that was) then it's OK to keep it, if it has been added by the builder then it should be assessed sensibly for safety" At the moment the BIVA is the same for a ground up kit build as it is for an imported bog standard American car of less than a certain age (don't ask me how old, I don't know! But there IS a limit!) or a car arbitrarily defined as radically altered even though it may look perfectly standard externally. And this is where the system falls down, but getting it to work fairly (and be cost effective from DVLAs point of view) is probably beyond my ancient and leaded petrol addled brain! Steve I'm quite sure that if DVLA and the powers that be had their way, we would all be forbidden to modify our cars (or build our own) AT ALL, IN ANY WAY, EVER! It would save them so much effort and money and turn us even more into the good obedient little drones that they would like us to be!
|
|
Last Edit: Feb 3, 2017 15:48:41 GMT by carledo
|
|
Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseRob M
@zeb
Club Retro Rides Member 41
|
|
To summarise Q plates There is still a huge amount of mostly unfounded predjudice and stigma surrounding them. Kit car and specials builders accept them more readily, and appreciate some of the benefits with them. The plate only really effects values on car models where there are plenty of other choices with a "normal" plate. As with any car, it's the builder/manufacturer that imbues the product with its qualities and worth, not the registration plate. If a person judges a cars value on a badge, or a letter on a plastic plate, that's more an indication of that indivuals worth than that of the car. There are lots of facts typed about the UK registration processes that are far from factual, in the main this is due to outdated information, assumptions, heresay and just a general lack of understanding. Some at the DVLA have little idea about these minority processes so it's no small wonder that people who have never really had any first hand involvement with it have little clue either. "Now, lend me three and fourpence we are going to a dance".... and by the way all Q plates explode when the come into contact with water. Any predjudice surrounding them is from people who have been there. You cannot lump kit cars into the mix, insurers have been insuring Q plated kits for eons, the industry is structured to cover and value them. There is, unfortunately, a world of difference between Q plating a bona fide kit car which is designed to use parts from umpteen cars, if not one single donor and a Ford Eurobox with parts from 25 other Ford Euro boxes. The stigma was never created by owners and enthusiasts it was created by the insurance industry who didnt and still don't really know how to value a parts bin car but are more than adept at valuing a 'Special' My case in point, do you seriously think i would be so negative towards Q plating if i hadnt ended up being put through the mill and ending up with a car that had cost me £1500 ( back in 94 ) and f**k all no more than six months later because of a non visible vin number? All of that and my insurer dropping me like i had the plague and having to go cap in hand to an insurer who would cover me for double what i had already paid did colour my judgement. Look, Ive seen some blindingly good Q plated cars, built to standards way beyond my abilities and, in the ideal world, those cars would be treated with the same deference and regard by insurers as cars with standard registration numbers.....but they are not. It matters not what popular opinion is about Q plates, it matters not what owners and prospective owners value such vehicles at, its about how the insurance industry values them. As I said previously, if you are prepared to pay more to insure, expect the vehicle to be valued by an insurer as less valuble as an equivillent vehicle with a standard plate then there is no issue at all, you know and understand what you are buying and how the insurance industry views them. All good. I realise that opinions will differ and people will have different, if not polar opposite views but just because we may feel that something is unjust or that the much maligned Q plate should stop getting a kick in doesnt mean that going out en masse and buying them regardless will change the perception, value and cost of getting them covered. To many, its just not worth it, to others it will be, thats an each to their own, right?
|
|
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,849
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
|
carledo - the best place to check the accuracy of information is the source. www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/what-evidence-to-give Last upadated Oct 16 so I have assume its current. I have no idea if those requirements have recently changed, and I cannot be bothered to download the complete guide. It has not recently been something I have needed to do, but know doubt it will be when I put my G27 back on the road with a 4444cc rather than a 3999cc, and I need to produce one of the required documents. Of course there is always the play dumb option of send it off anyway and see if they ask. Now back to Q plates - They are the best because the Queens name starts with a Q
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well I'll do you a reciept for your 4444cc G27 Engine and you can do me one for the 2198cc Omega motor i'm putting in my Dolomite Sprint! LOL!
None of the docs quoted in that list were what I had or what I got to register my Toledo's Carlton engine. That was done (eventually) by getting a TSSC Area organiser to inspect the car and confirm the new capacity/engine number in writing on TSSC headed notepaper.
And none is what I have for the Omega engine going into the Sprint since I bought the car the engine came from, registered it in my name and ran it for 6 months before stripping the motor and other stuff from it and scrapping the shell. I noted all the data from the V5 and naively thought being the legit owner of the car the engine came from would be sufficient. Obviously I was wrong! Again!
Steve
|
|
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,849
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
|
Rob M - I am not sure how you buying an expensive car 23 years ago without a visible VIN tag is the fault of the car having a Q plate? Buyer beware is not anything new. Insurers can only insure something that can be validated as what it is, and without a VIN, the plate has no association with what it's hung on, same as any other plate. The OP's question simply asks "tell me about Q plates" - As the greater majority of Q plates are on kit cars I hold that actually I can "lump them into the mix" it would actually be wrong not to. "Is it 'cos i'm Q!"
|
|
|
|
Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,849
Club RR Member Number: 39
|
Tell me Q plates pleaseDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
|
|
Well I'll do you a reciept for your 4444cc G27 Engine and you can do me one for the 2198cc Omega motor i'm putting in my Dolomite Sprint! LOL! None of the docs quoted in that list were what I had or what I got to register my Toledo's Carlton engine. That was done (eventually) by getting a TSSC Area organiser to inspect the car and confirm the new capacity/engine number in writing on TSSC headed notepaper. And none is what I have for the Omega engine going into the Sprint since I bought the car the engine came from, registered it in my name and ran it for 6 months before stripping the motor and other stuff from it and scrapping the shell. I noted all the data from the V5 and naively thought being the legit owner of the car the engine came from would be sufficient. Obviously I was wrong! Again! Steve It's a deal and as a qualified mechanical engineer and having plenty of mates who have engine tuning businesses no fraud will be perpetuated. Off the Q thread so I will PM you.
|
|
|
|
|