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Mate quickly showed me an article in a recent issue of Practical Classics by FBHVC along the lines that for a vehicle to be classed as "Historic" and thus be VED, and possibly MOT, exempt it will need to be original specification. I didn't have time to read the article so can anyone give more details of what is planned etc ?
Cheers.
Paul H
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taurus
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,084
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It wasn't a long article - was in the April edition (or Spring as it says on the front cover - why?)
The Federation Internationale Des Vehicules Anciens (FIVA) is lobbying for a distinction between 'old' and 'historic' vehicles. By 'historic' they mean a mechanically propelled vehicle at least 30 years old preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition - and not used as a daily means of transport.
It's to do with emissions legislation - they don't want old badly maintained cars being used a daily transport on the cheap. If emissions legislation and exemptions are harmonised across Europe they want a benchmark to apply.
The FBHVC does not support this suggestion by FIVA.
The current UK position is that UK exemption will be based on the V5 - if it says 'historic' you are exempt.
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Not sure if its related,but i was reading something online a couple of weeks ago saying that the EU wants to bring it in that vehicles have to be as they left the factory,no mods at all. Don't know if there will be a cut off date, but totally unworkable ......
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Not sure if its related,but i was reading something online a couple of weeks ago saying that the EU wants to bring it in that vehicles have to be as they left the factory,no mods at all. Don't know if there will be a cut off date, but totally unworkable ...... That is how it works in Belgium. You have special number plates that only allow you to drive a certain distance from registered address unless you have written invitation to attend a show as exhibitor etc. If you want to use the car everyday then it has normal number plates plus all the rules that go with that such as their version of MOT.
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Apr 21, 2016 10:31:03 GMT
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Understandable that they may wish to separate occasional use from old, regularly used cars, but scary when applied to intelligent saftey upgrades like wheels/tyres & brakes, & necessary changes due to parts availability. Should just be honest about it & based upon mileage/days used!
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Apr 21, 2016 11:01:23 GMT
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The real problem would be how on earth do they determine what is original factory, the DVLA has virtually no records of changes unless it has been through an IVA or the engine capacity changed. Go back in time and even some of the most famous Bentleys were bitsas, Are they suggesting they should all be returned to factory spec?
It seems like a lot of vintage car snobbery to me, go to any vintage car meet and you will see all sorts of wild specials and one off builds, change the wheels for ones which accept tubeless radials and fit brakes actually work to a Morris Minor and it's the no longer an original or valid historic vehicle?
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faker
Part of things
novanut
Posts: 272
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Apr 21, 2016 11:45:46 GMT
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Double post!
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Last Edit: Apr 21, 2016 11:51:41 GMT by faker
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faker
Part of things
novanut
Posts: 272
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Apr 21, 2016 11:46:32 GMT
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The idea behind it is to stop or at least try to prevent for example the likes of retro rides very own mx5 powered spitfire or copen powered standard being used as mot and tax exempt daily drivers. Those two examples were never built or intended as daily drivers, but I'm sure somebody somewhere has.
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faker
Part of things
novanut
Posts: 272
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Apr 21, 2016 12:19:33 GMT
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Oh. There's a bloke in N.I. has a Mk1 escort 4 door, converted to 2 door, which is now front wheel drive and running an endurance td engine. Uses it as a daily driver too! It's a cool barge. But it would fall foul of the proposed legislation if it ever came in to force, meaning it's heavily modified and would no longer qualify as being tax exempt.
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Apr 21, 2016 12:42:21 GMT
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It makes perfect sense to me that people should pay the full rate of road tax for a daily driver, regardless of how old it is.
Just some Australian examples for you:
In South Australia, normal registration cost is based only on the number of cylinders and your address for third-party insurance. Old cars in daily use must pay the same rego as a brand new car. There is also an Historic registration scheme for cars which are used less than 90 days per year, where you have to pay roughly a quarter of the full registration cost. You get a logbook with 90 lines in it, and you have to fill in the logbook every day before driving the car. Historic registered cars have normal number plates. Historic registered vehicles have to be "a vehicle manufactured before 1 January 1979 that has not been modified from its original design to any significant extent." This is administered through car clubs, so you need to be a member of a relevant club for the car, and they need to inspect it annually to confirm that it's not modified and issue your new logbook. Some clubs get carried away, so I have heard of members being warned about having non-original blue silicon spark plug leads!
In Victoria, they have a similar 90-day rego system called a club permit, which includes special maroon number plates. You still have to be a member of a car club and fill out a logbook. The big difference is that the cars are allowed to be modified, and it has a rolling age limit of 25 years. Very different to pre-1979, I see R32 Skylines and E34 BMW 5-series cruising around on club plates all the time!
The UK system of tax-free daily driving in modified old cars seems very generous to me!
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Apr 21, 2016 12:59:28 GMT
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Not sure if its related,but i was reading something online a couple of weeks ago saying that the EU wants to bring it in that vehicles have to be as they left the factory,no mods at all. Don't know if there will be a cut off date, but totally unworkable ...... That is how it works in Belgium. You have special number plates that only allow you to drive a certain distance from registered address unless you have written invitation to attend a show as exhibitor etc. If you want to use the car everyday then it has normal number plates plus all the rules that go with that such as their version of MOT. This is where the 'one size fits all' and 'we are all as one in the same' falls on its face. The modified/classic car scene is worth, tens of, if not hundreds of million pounds to this countrys economy every year. From manufacturers of seat belts, wheels, courier companies,online auctions, magazines, you name it our hobby probably, directly or indirectly has some sort of link and is a financial beneficiary to umpteen businesses and thousands of people. Start playing around with that and you kill the goose that lays the golden egg. It does seem that too little emphasis is put on just how much money will go down the pan if restrictive legislation is bought into force. It may well work in Belgium and other EU countries, the hobby is of a smaller scale but here? No chance.
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Apr 21, 2016 13:11:53 GMT
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Christ how many people use tax exempt cars as daily drivers?! I bet its a very minor percentage of road users.
Don't people have more important issues to meddle with!
If tax avoidance is this issue there's plenty of other people to go after first before the people using old cars as a daily drivers. If emissions is the issue, aren't more emissions produced in a cars construction, then its life time on the road? Therefore people using older cars are actually helping...
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Last Edit: Apr 21, 2016 13:15:32 GMT by mgbizzle
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Apr 21, 2016 13:19:00 GMT
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This is where the 'one size fits all' and 'we are all as one in the same' falls on its face. The modified/classic car scene is worth, tens of, if not hundreds of million pounds to this countrys economy every year. From manufacturers of seat belts, wheels, courier companies,online auctions, magazines, you name it our hobby probably, directly or indirectly has some sort of link and is a financial beneficiary to umpteen businesses and thousands of people. Start playing around with that and you kill the goose that lays the golden egg. It does seem that too little emphasis is put on just how much money will go down the pan if restrictive legislation is bought into force. It may well work in Belgium and other EU countries, the hobby is of a smaller scale but here? No chance. ^^ This ^^ all the way. Without getting anti-EU, the car scene is somewhere like France is totally different to that in the UK. One rule for all only works if we're all playing the same game. We're not.
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Last Edit: Apr 21, 2016 13:21:01 GMT by jifflemon
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Apr 21, 2016 15:45:00 GMT
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If only there had been an organisation that pointed out the road we are going down earlier ...
There's far more to this than meets the eye and that most people will believe.
It's quicker and simpler to say our last hope at having any input into this ( The Armegeddon Scenario) is almost upon us. DfT are about to issue a Consultation document which will define the Historic exemption and give options.
Secondly in small print are some very worrying reasons to fail cars that ( if they haven't been taken out by DfT) will impact on ALL car modifiers.
Basic line is defining illegal / dangerous modifications as those " detrimental to the environment ".While this is very loosely worded and all the ostriches will say " my MOT guy will be fine with that " the biggest problem is once we have something like that in Statue it can then be clearly definied by further legislation.
By the way , don't think getting out of the Eu will stop all this as it all comes from UNECE which is United Nations plus EU
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Last Edit: Apr 21, 2016 15:45:16 GMT by kapri
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Apr 21, 2016 15:51:59 GMT
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Not sure if its related,but i was reading something online a couple of weeks ago saying that the EU wants to bring it in that vehicles have to be as they left the factory,no mods at all. Don't know if there will be a cut off date, but totally unworkable ...... That is how it works in Belgium. You have special number plates that only allow you to drive a certain distance from registered address unless you have written invitation to attend a show as exhibitor etc. If you want to use the car everyday then it has normal number plates plus all the rules that go with that such as their version of MOT. It's ALREADY being applied ,mostly incorrectly and illegally, but being applied by DVLA non the less. Most vehicles entering into Historic taxation class for the first time is being sent a V627/1 form and asked for photos and source of components used. Second issue is they they are refusing to register rebodied Historic cars that my have even been on the road in that form already. This is because they have been off the road leaving them in either ' Not Licensed' or 'PLG' taxation classes DVLA will not currently allow a chassis with no body to be registered ( into Historic for the first time )and will not accept replica bodies. Currently you can still modify within 8 points system but how that sits with teh new MOT rules is anyones guess.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:08:15 GMT
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And this is why I was always against extending tax exception, people are so short sighted though, exchanging a hand full of coins each year for the possibility of limited road use in the future.
Lets see where this goes now. Car modifying will continue, just pop over to Worthersee to see what stricter regulations gets you.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:37:49 GMT
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I'll be interested to see what happens with this. I use my highly modified tax-exempt Escort every day to drive to and from work, about 50 miles a day. What they don't get out of me in RFL is probably more than made up for on fuel duty by only getting about 30mpg. Long-term plans are a bit extreme and involve BIVA though, seems like a good way to beat the system?
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oooooh I'm so badass.... I've got a z in my name
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Apr 21, 2016 17:50:17 GMT
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And this is why I was always against extending tax exception, people are so short sighted though, exchanging a hand full of coins each year for the possibility of limited road use in the future. Lets see where this goes now. Car modifying will continue, just pop over to Worthersee to see what stricter regulations gets you. Absolutely!!!!! I have always marvelled at the stupidity of clamouring for free road tax when it does nothing more than segregate you from the masses and leaves you a sitting duck for those who have no interest in our passion to call for greater restrictions in useage as some sort of payback. If you really are tighter than a gnats chuff and consider road tax avoidance as a victory over authority then you need your head examining. Id actually fully support any group demanding that tax exemption AND MOT exemption be completely scrapped. Look, nobody FORCES us to do this, its not like people who enjoy watching porn are demanding free Kleenex, is it.
Possibly.
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Apr 21, 2016 19:18:52 GMT
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And this is why I was always against extending tax exception, people are so short sighted though, exchanging a hand full of coins each year for the possibility of limited road use in the future. Lets see where this goes now. Car modifying will continue, just pop over to Worthersee to see what stricter regulations gets you. We STILL have BIVA to use and the numbers of people using it, and diversity of vehicles being done, is growing all the time. I'm currently writing a plain English version of the manual with hints and tips. The bulk of Retrorides style cars are off to a very good start anyway re glass specs which is the stumbling block for many pre 1980ish vehicles. Tax exemption = no such thing as a free lunch
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Apr 21, 2016 19:21:06 GMT
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I'll be interested to see what happens with this. I use my highly modified tax-exempt Escort every day to drive to and from work, about 50 miles a day. What they don't get out of me in RFL is probably more than made up for on fuel duty by only getting about 30mpg. Long-term plans are a bit extreme and involve BIVA though, seems like a good way to beat the system? The FHVBC cut loose daily driven Historics a long time ago making an official statement that they couldn't support them. They have also made a statement that they " are taking modified cars into account " with their dealing. personally I have yet yo see evidence of that or that they are fighting the modifiers corner.
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