Zotez
Part of things
Posts: 413
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Nov 10, 2015 10:57:40 GMT
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Hi guys, I'm hoping someone can offer up some advice. I've just fitted some alloy wheels to my bluebird, however when the wheelnuts are tightened they don't seem to leave much thread. The original steels had a bit more thread sticking out. Is this correct, or will I need to change the studs/nuts? Thanks Scott
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taurus
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,084
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Nov 10, 2015 12:20:22 GMT
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So long as the seat is the right shape they'll be fine like that. The nuts don't keep the wheel on by themselves, they only create the pressure between the wheel and the hub which is the force that is doing the work.
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Zotez
Part of things
Posts: 413
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Nov 10, 2015 12:23:10 GMT
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thank you, i'll leave them as they are!
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niwid
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,744
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Nov 11, 2015 14:17:14 GMT
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So long as the seat is the right shape they'll be fine like that. The nuts don't keep the wheel on by themselves, they only create the pressure between the wheel and the hub which is the force that is doing the work. Woah woah woah, that's a different kettle of mermaids. If there is not enough thread to hold the nuts/bolts on properly then they can come lose. I would first double and triple check that the seats are correct. If they are, I think the minimum required amount of turns on a wheel nut is 6, maybe someone can clarify that?
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barty
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,088
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Nov 11, 2015 15:15:31 GMT
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yeah i agree there don't seem enough thread on the studs. Are you sure they are the correct nuts for the wheels with the correct taper ? As your aware wheel nuts are not self locking and with the thread not even poking it nose out of the wheel nut i would say something is wrong
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taurus
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,084
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Nov 11, 2015 15:20:39 GMT
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In the photo as I see it the threads are at the full depth of the nuts so providing the seats are the right shape they should be fine. Any thread beyond the nut isn't doing anything.
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,789
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Nov 11, 2015 15:45:46 GMT
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I must need an eye test then, because the end of those studs appear to be inside the nuts from where I'm sitting!
If you don't have a full nut engagement of thread, then you are NOT getting a full hold on the wheel.
Double check the seats are the correct type and profile.
From what I can see, which is difficult due to the angle of photo, you're 1 or 2 threads short, meaning extra strain on the other 5 or 6 threads, which could lead to the threads stripping in the nuts.
I would strongly recommend fitting longer studs, or depending on the wheels, deepening the seat for the nuts a couple of mm
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Iain
Part of things
Posts: 351
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Nov 11, 2015 15:47:46 GMT
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I wouldn't be overly concerned if no thread is sticking out, that'll be the full depth of the nut that is threaded so plenty for it to grip on to. Any pics/measurements of the length of the stud?
Could just be the manufacturer fitting short studs for steelies, and an alloy wheel being thicker than the original steel that was on there.
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2015 15:48:32 GMT by Iain
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,789
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Nov 11, 2015 15:57:26 GMT
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I wouldn't be overly concerned if no thread is sticking out, that'll be the full depth of the nut that is threaded so plenty for it to grip on to. Any pics/measurements of the length of the stud? Could just be the manufacturer fitting short studs for steelies, and an alloy wheel being thicker than the original steel that was on there. If it didn't matter that there is not full depth of nut thread engagement, the manufacturers wouldn't make the nuts as deep as they are, would they. The bean counters would shape any fraction possible off of the cost of building a car, and if they could save £0.005 per car, they would! The nuts are that size for a reason.
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Nov 11, 2015 16:59:57 GMT
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Undo one of the nuts and coat the taper aspect with one of the broad type felt pens which have indelible ink then screw back on. If the taper is correct for the alloys then all the felt pen ink should be removed from the taper. If any left at the top or the bottom of the taper then you have confirmed that the steel wheel nuts are the wrong taper angle for alloys.
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Nov 11, 2015 17:07:23 GMT
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If those are the nuts that were used on the original steel wheels then you should definitely be checking the taper on them.
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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Wheel Nuts?scimjim
@scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member 8
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Nov 11, 2015 22:01:32 GMT
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General rule is that you should have two full threads showing - locking nuts (nyloc etc) can be flush.
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BT
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,772
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Nov 11, 2015 22:23:52 GMT
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The standard in my trade is 2 full turns of thread protruding past the nut face. Any less than this and I replace the bolt or stud with one an additional 5mm longer.
Is the wheel nut taper correct for the wheel?
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Wheel Nuts?Deleted
@Deleted
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Another vote for there should be some thread showing, just ask any wheel specialist/ tyre fitter.
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Wheel Nuts?Deleted
@Deleted
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It also looks like the wheel centre hole is not tight on the hub centre, you may need a shim otherwise all the weight is on the studs
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Last Edit: Nov 13, 2015 2:02:27 GMT by Deleted
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,303
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Wheel Nuts?Rich
@foxmcintyre
Club Retro Rides Member 160
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It also looks like the wheel centre hole is not tight on the hub centre, you may need a shim otherwise all the weight is on the studs Jesus, you too? That's NOT HOW WHEELS WORK. How many times?! The weight would be on the studs if he drives around with the bolts loose, when they are tight they create many many tonnes of clamping force between the wheel and hub alleviating any 'weight' on the hub spigot, studs, bolts or nun's faces.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Wheel Nuts?Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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It also looks like the wheel centre hole is not tight on the hub centre, you may need a shim otherwise all the weight is on the studs Jesus, you too? That's NOT HOW WHEELS WORK. How many times?! The weight would be on the studs if he drives around with the bolts loose, when they are tight they create many many tonnes of clamping force between the wheel and hub alleviating any 'weight' on the hub spigot, studs, bolts or nun's faces. +1. also, youre average 'wheel specialsist/tyre fitter' simply isnt qualified to offer opinion on such a matter. in engineering terms a thread can never be stronger than 1.5D, regardless of length or material. for steel, its actually only 1D, but most applications will still use 1.5D to allow 1D of good clean uninterrupted thread engagement. so your engagement needs to be 1.5 times the major diameter of the thread. in this case I'm pretty sure thats 12mm, so 1.5x12= 18mm. standard wheel nuts are, in my experience, always longer than this, around 22mm depending on hex size and seat form (taper or radius, they're even longer for sleeve nuts). this is because the standard hex length of 0.8(so for a 19mm hex, it would be 15.2mm) plus the length of the taper or radius seat form (generally around 6.5-7.5mm depending on overall diameter) add up to more than 1.5D. but its easier from a manufacturers point of view to just bang the thread through the whole lot rather than having a second machining process going on to counterbore them to shorten the thread (although i have seen some that do have this). so what does that mean? well it means full engagement of a standard wheel nut is generally NOT necessary for maximum strength of the thread. it also means there isnt just '5 or 6 threads' of engaged thread on each wheelnut- its more like 15, depending on whether the pitch is 1.25 or 1.5. so having one or two unused threads at the end of a nut is absolutely fine. referring back to the OP pic, i see nothing wrong at all with what is going on there, obviously providing the seat type of the nut is correct for the wheel. if the OP can just clarify what the alloys are originally from, it should clear things up. the bluebird will be m12x1.25 thread with a radius seat. chances are as long as the wheels arent from an OEM VAG or BMW source, everything should be hunky-dory as they're the most prevalent use of a radius seat. i would also recommend removing a nut and measuring its overall length and posting it up, just to make sure my maths is applicable and it doesnt have funny short wheelnuts or something.
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Last Edit: Nov 13, 2015 9:51:36 GMT by Dez
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Nov 13, 2015 11:43:41 GMT
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Hi, +2
With one additional point, it's good engineering practice to have two threads clear of the nut.
Colin
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,303
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Wheel Nuts?Rich
@foxmcintyre
Club Retro Rides Member 160
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Nov 13, 2015 13:31:04 GMT
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Hi, +2 With one additional point, it's good engineering practice to have two threads clear of the nut. Colin Shame that most of my cars have even built wrong then, as the capped nuts on my Hyundai and mgb have no thread poking through and even my landrover has wheel nuts flush with the stud. Someone should tell the makers of cars..
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Nov 13, 2015 14:21:47 GMT
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Hi, +2 With one additional point, it's good engineering practice to have two threads clear of the nut. Colin Shame that most of my cars have even built wrong then, as the capped nuts on my Hyundai and mgb have no thread poking through and even my landrover has wheel nuts flush with the stud. Someone should tell the makers of cars.. Ahh yes, if you have capped nuts with threads poking out you have faulty nuts. There's a good reason for LRs to have flush threads, it stops the threads being damaged off roading. Neither of which apply to the OPs circumstances. Colin
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