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Oct 12, 2015 12:02:58 GMT
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Hi all,
I'm hoping someone here can help.
I have a 1989 Polo Coupe S and am having starting issues.
To summarise:
Suddenly the car developed a lack of power under foot, (though in the 6 months I've had it, it's never been brilliant).
It then started stalling. I managed to limp back home.
On inspection, there was no fuel getting to the in-line filter, or pump.
So, I'm pretty sure it's not electrical....and it came on so suddenly.
The fuel pump is mecdhanical, on the back of the head and had a small leak, so being cheap as chips from GSF, I changed it and the in-line filter.
Still no joy.
No fuel to the filter, or pump.
So I used a hand pump, before the filter in case there was a fuel line blockage.
Fuel gushed out into a jar.
I filled the filter and line beyond it.
The car started strraight away and then died once that had run out.
So, I still have no fuel to the filter or pump, or to the carb therefore.
This leads me to believe it's vacuum related.
Hoses etc are in good nick.
I have a carb base/gasket/flange being delivered from GSF.
Standard Pierburg Carb.
Standard 1300cc engine, no mods.
A bit of an essay, but I'm hoping someone who really knows can help, before I give in and tow it to the garage in shame!!!
Cheers.
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 12, 2015 12:28:36 GMT
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sounds like a dud pump ...cant you try it with a can /bottle of fuel held up above the carb to see if it will run
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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Oct 12, 2015 12:43:21 GMT
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Thanks mate.
As I said in my post, I primed it by putting fuel in manually from the hose before the filter.
It started straight away and died when that was used up.
Would a duff pump have pulled that through?
The pump is new, but a crappy GSF jobby, so I did wonder the same thing.
I also wondered, as I'd primed it, maybe it didn't need too much vacuum to pull it through.
Thanks again.
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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taurus
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,084
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Oct 12, 2015 13:09:17 GMT
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It isn't clear exactly how you hand pumped it. Did you operate the fuel pump by hand and it pumped enough fuel to start it?
It sounds like a fuel supply issue if it will run when fuel is present and then die once it's used that up. Could be a dud pump - they pump more when operated by hand because the movement when running off the engine isn't as much. Or the engine operation of the pump could be worn.
I had endless hassles with mechanical pumps on various models and in the end went for installing an electric pump rather than faff around with replacement mechanical pumps.
Sometimes mechanical pumps need to be well primed in order to pull fuel through - but given what you've said about long term lack of performance I suspect it's something more than that.
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Oct 12, 2015 13:31:53 GMT
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Thanks Taurus.
I attached a hand football pump to the fuel line to pull the fuel through....(correction, pump was for my missus' Aerobics ball!)
The plastic conical valve fits perfectly into fuel line.
An old trick I used on my Land Rover years ago.
I can see when it runs, after I've primed it, for that few seconds, that no more fuel is being pulled through the filter.
Even though I did that, it still somewhow passed that fuel through the pump and onto the carb.
So I can't see any blockages being an issue, maybe only even the pump (even though it's new) and maybe a vacuum fault.
Thanks again.
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 12, 2015 14:24:12 GMT
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sounds like a dud pump ...cant you try it with a can /bottle of fuel held up above the carb to see if it will run Sorry mate, I think I misunderstood. Are you suggesting I take a feed from a can straight into the filter? That sounds like a plan, it would negate problems with the tank end of things. Thank you. |
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 12, 2015 15:04:36 GMT
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I'm saying a fuel can /bottle or whatever with a rubber hose fitted directly to the fuel inlet pipe on the carb , hold it above so gravity feeds it
i would stick to a known brand on the fuel pump , alot of the parts these days are dud straight out of the box
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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Oct 12, 2015 17:51:24 GMT
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Yes, it starts with that method, spluttery as hell, but it starts.
I'm not really sure if that tells me more than I knew though,
as it started before with fuel added manually before the pump and passed through it merrily enough, which is what is confusing and frustrating as hell.
It just won't pump on it's own, as if there is no suction whatsoever to get the fuel from the back of the car, or not much.
I may well get another and better quality pump and a new carb flange should be here by Wednesday.
Thanks again.
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 12, 2015 18:10:04 GMT
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yeah its saying fuel pump to me , are you sure the little plunger thingy hasnt fell out? not sure they can fall out but worth a look
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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Oct 12, 2015 18:50:53 GMT
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Thanks mate, no it hasn't.
One thing I have noticed with the GSF part, is that the casting around the shaft is about half the width of the priginal Pierburg!
It fits, it's just so flimsy looking.
If it's knackered already, I'm not surprised!
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 20, 2015 21:30:11 GMT
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I just wanted to post this pic, as a method of therapy really!! Suspecting that my GSF purchase was faulty, I ordered another, thinking, if that works okay, I'll send the original back. Check the different angles of the inlet and outlet!! On the left, the knackered but well made original, on the right, the possibly faulty first purchase and in the centre, todays arrival, scuffed and obviously previously used. The outlet comes so close to the inlet manifold, I can't run a hose from it. Both are going back and I have a proper one on it's way! I'll stop being so tight in future!  |
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 21, 2015 13:39:01 GMT
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I just wanted to post this pic, as a method of therapy really!! Suspecting that my GSF purchase was faulty, I ordered another, thinking, if that works okay, I'll send the original back. Check the different angles of the inlet and outlet!! On the left, the knackered but well made original, on the right, the possibly faulty first purchase and in the centre, todays arrival, scuffed and obviously previously used. The outlet comes so close to the inlet manifold, I can't run a hose from it. Both are going back and I have a proper one on it's way! I'll stop being so tight in future! That's mental!  |
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Oct 21, 2015 19:39:43 GMT
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That's mental! Yeah, just not mental enough for them to offer me a refund without first questioning whether I'd ordered the right parts. Anyone in their right mind can see, regardless of not working properly, that they won't fit and are nade like sh#t! Had to wait 45 minutes .....and take the missus shopping....shan't use them again!!! Cheers! |
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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Oct 21, 2015 20:47:31 GMT
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These pumps are run off a lobe on the cam, might be worth checking that for damage. Also have you checked the length of the actuator arm on the two pumps to make sure the new one has the same sort of "throw" as the old one?
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Oct 21, 2015 21:37:20 GMT
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Thanks @roccoguy.
Yes, the cam looks okay.
I've had the rocker off and checked it.
Neither of the GSF pumps seemed okay in that respect, but it is difficult to measure, as the original is knackered.
They both had lots of issues...I've been quite concise here.
The second one also had misaligned mounting holes and was so badly burred, it wouldn't butt up against the head.
Nightmare.
I've ordered a proper Pierburg, so should have a proper idea when that's on.
Cheers :-)
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'89 Polo Coupe S, '94 Renault 5 Campus, '77 VW Type 2 Devonette
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In case you've not got sorted with this, have you had the sender/pickup unit out of the tank? Tank to filler neck joint rots on these and might result in clogged pickup filter ... Just a thought.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,269
Club RR Member Number: 170
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If you are in the Midlands you can borrow a Facet pump of mine with a jerry can to rule out the pump and fuel tank. Then of course you could hook it up to the fuel tank to rule out the tank as well.
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Nov 10, 2015 13:29:06 GMT
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Bodgetastic (but well proven) ideas  : blocked tank / kinked pipe / vaccuume? run a new bit of pipe from jerry-can (in passenger footwell?) to inlet on the pump, if it now runs you know the problem is before the pump. It got me home a few times before I found my problem. or try same but with an electric pump? remove pipe from carb (and hold the end in a glass jar), spin the car using the starter, you should get regular "squirts" of fuel into the jar when the motor turns over - but in your case I think it will be weak or missing... fit a glass fuel filter just before the carb to stop any crud and let you see if fuel is running or not. Hope you get it sorted, mine was frustrating for months until I found a flake of crud blocking the pipe inside the tank  |
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Nov 10, 2015 18:34:38 GMT
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As said you need to isolate the issue which looks like fuel.
With the pump fitted use a length of hose into a container of clean fuel and connect this to the pump inlet.
Have another container the other side and feed the pump outlet into that and get a lovely assistant to crank the engine over for a few seconds
If you get throughput you know the pump is doing its job and the issue is supply side .
Pull the supply line from the tank and place it in a container, pull the supply line from the pump end and blow back through the pipe, if you don't like the taste of petrol you could always use your handy lady appliance pump (!) valve on a tyre inflator to blow back down the line, you will likely need to do this prior to any in line filter at the engine bay.
In theory on a mechanical lift system you should get a lovely breeze at the tank end, or a container with rusty smeg floating on stale fuel traces.
If you don't get air flow there is a blockage in the supply line , if you do , check the in tank pick up but be petrol vapor aware as always.
Work back to the tank checking for kinks, splits etc. However as said by wiser men its likely the tank has rusted inside and the pick up and possibly fuel line is full of detritus.
If you're still running the Pi**berg carb consider ditching it as once they go wrong they are as hateful a thing as you'd wish to encounter, see if you can webber it up.
good luck
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Needs a bigger hammer mate.......
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