gazz81
Part of things
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 842
|
|
Sept 9, 2015 23:04:06 GMT
|
Does anyone remember the story about a guy that helped himself to an abandoned Cosworth a few years a go? Was apparently left on the side of a road for a very long period of time and the guy applied for a logbook and then helped himself to it! I'm sure there was more too it than that, but I was trying to find the original story but I can't!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 9, 2015 23:05:26 GMT
|
Yes. Read that on Passionford a few years ago.
Very contriversial thread. Interesting read though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 9, 2015 23:10:18 GMT
|
Crime pays apparently, wasn't the official owner inside at the time?
|
|
|
|
gazz81
Part of things
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 842
|
|
Sept 9, 2015 23:12:25 GMT
|
I don't remember the full story, hence trying to find it. I was curious to know what the final outcome was.
|
|
|
|
956ring
Part of things
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Lurking
Posts: 36
|
|
Sept 9, 2015 23:51:34 GMT
|
Sounds interesting. A chap I used to know who works for a scrap yard managed to bag an e36 m3 evo convert in simaliar circumstances.
This was around 2008 and he still has it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 10, 2015 6:44:34 GMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 10, 2015 7:25:36 GMT
|
Without having to read through the whole thread he kept it for a few years then sold it to his mate who still owns it I believe.
|
|
|
|
slomoshun
Part of things
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Going forward one nut and bolt at a time
Posts: 319
|
|
Sept 10, 2015 7:49:05 GMT
|
Saw an abandoned Triumph Spitfire parked for about a year outside a rural police station in Somerset. Asked the police about ownership etc who said it was abandoned and to apply for a v5 which i did. Now with car in my name all was not plain sailing as before i could get to legally move it the local scrap men who live by the road in their nice caravans hoisted it away seen using an hi ab. So now i report it stolen to find out the rightful owner who had been abroad years also reported same car stolen. All in all if i saw another i would not bother even though advice given to apply for ownership came from the police themselves. I must add i didnt want the car for profit just thought a nice resto project and saving a true British car from a scrap yard ending.
|
|
Last Edit: Sept 10, 2015 7:53:11 GMT by slomoshun
Traction and horsepower is nearing perfection
|
|
|
|
Sept 10, 2015 8:25:25 GMT
|
I remember reading about that a while back. He claims to of done nothing wrong but changed it to a private plate and refused to post pics of the car. Would love to know what happened to the rightful owner
|
|
|
|
bazzateer
Posted a lot
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 7:20:56 GMT
|
Saw an abandoned Triumph Spitfire parked for about a year outside a rural police station in Somerset. Asked the police about ownership etc who said it was abandoned and to apply for a v5 which i did. Now with car in my name all was not plain sailing as before i could get to legally move it the local scrap men who live by the road in their nice caravans hoisted it away seen using an hi ab. So now i report it stolen to find out the rightful owner who had been abroad years also reported same car stolen. All in all if i saw another i would not bother even though advice given to apply for ownership came from the police themselves. I must add i didnt want the car for profit just thought a nice resto project and saving a true British car from a scrap yard ending. A V5 only records a registered keeper, it is nothing to do with ownership. Most of the time the R/K is also the owner (purchase receipt in possession etc) but the V5 is absolutely never proof of ownership.
|
|
1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 7:29:19 GMT
|
A friend of mine did the same thing with a Honda S2000. It had been sitting in the same spot for months. He went through the 'correct' procedure, and ended up with a virtually free car.
It does seem somehow morally unsound - but if you abandon something in a public place for a lengthy period of time no matter what it is, you shouldn't be surprised if it's not there when you return. I guess the morality thing comes into it because the rightful owner may be in hospital unconscious or in prison for a crime they didn't commit (A-Team style) - But I suspect the real reasons are probably far less dramatic. Maybe the car was stolen, the owner given the payout, and the car just forgotten about, but for whatever reason it wasn't properly recorded as stolen, so just fell off the radar...
It's intriguing all the same, both because there's an air of mystery about it, and the faint possibility that one day it could happen to you!
|
|
|
|
andyf
South West
Posts: 415
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 7:33:42 GMT
|
Saw an abandoned Triumph Spitfire parked for about a year outside a rural police station in Somerset. Asked the police about ownership etc who said it was abandoned and to apply for a v5 which i did. Now with car in my name all was not plain sailing as before i could get to legally move it the local scrap men who live by the road in their nice caravans hoisted it away seen using an hi ab. So now i report it stolen to find out the rightful owner who had been abroad years also reported same car stolen. All in all if i saw another i would not bother even though advice given to apply for ownership came from the police themselves. I must add i didnt want the car for profit just thought a nice resto project and saving a true British car from a scrap yard ending. A V5 only records a registered keeper, it is nothing to do with ownership. Most of the time the R/K is also the owner (purchase receipt in possession etc) but the V5 is absolutely never proof of ownership. This. Even if you get a V5 taking a car without the owners permission is still theft surely, I am amazed at the Police with the advice about the Spitfire. To be honest I am also amazed at anyone that owns a car leaving it outside in plain view whilst they go abroad/inside. Would the car be taxed/insured because if not and it is on a road surely the police would lift it themselves? And if it was on private property, add trespass to theft I would have thought. Can of worms..
|
|
1980 Triumph TR7.
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 8:30:10 GMT
|
I'm not sure on the actual minutiae of the process - but it's not theft in the eyes of the law if you have taken reasonable steps to contact the owner apparently. As far as I'm aware the DVLA contact the last registered keeper and if they hear nothing, then they issue the V5. It does seem to be a huge grey area as to what happens if the original owner reappears. But this kind of thing happens so infrequently, I've yet to hear of any 'true' keeper coming back to claim their goods. Maybe at some point you do legally become the 'owner' as opposed to just being the registered keeper?
I suppose there must have been a reason why someone would just up and leave a car for a length of time - and it's not unreasonable to assume that in the vast majority of cases that they simply don't want the car any more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 8:43:10 GMT
|
I'm not sure on the actual minutiae of the process - but it's not theft in the eyes of the law if you have taken reasonable steps to contact the owner apparently. As far as I'm aware the DVLA contact the last registered keeper and if they hear nothing, then they issue the V5. It does seem to be a huge grey area as to what happens if the original owner reappears. But this kind of thing happens so infrequently, I've yet to hear of any 'true' keeper coming back to claim their goods. Maybe at some point you do legally become the 'owner' as opposed to just being the registered keeper? I suppose there must have been a reason why someone would just up and leave a car for a length of time - and it's not unreasonable to assume that in the vast majority of cases that they simply don't want the car any more. It's not a grey area, it's theft. My step dad had the police on his door step wanting to charge him with it after he took a mini and claimed it. He had been asked to move it by the local council (he used to remove cars from unpaid or abandoned council garages for them), so he hadn't done anything wrong. Once he proved it was all above board and the owner was found to be lying to the police about the date it was taken on they backed off. If further down the line the true owner of the escort cosworth pops up he could claim his car back and as there's a paper trail with the dvla leading back to the lad that took the car, he would probably face some sort of charges if the owner wanted to press ahead with it... he may just be happy to of had someone else plough their money into keeping it in roadworthy condition while he was away tho I suppose lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 8:58:52 GMT
|
The Theft Act 1968 states that "(3)A person does not commit an offence under this section if he believes that he has lawful authority for the removal of the thing in question or that he would have it if the person entitled to give it knew of the removal and the circumstances of it." Source:http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/11
You would have a very good case if you stated that the vehicle has been unused and 'abandoned' for several months, and the council, police, and DVLA were all complicit in the removal of the vehicle. Whether or not you would have to give it back is the grey area but, done correctly, it's not theft.
I also suspect (although don't know) that you would be able to stake some legal claim to it if you went through the correct channels, and repaired/made legal the vehicle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 9:06:28 GMT
|
That's it. I'm going to sleep in mine from now on ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Just hope whoever claims it is pretty.
|
|
|
|
slomoshun
Part of things
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Going forward one nut and bolt at a time
Posts: 319
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 9:24:00 GMT
|
Just to clarify the Spitfire was on private land at the entrance to a derelict factory less abandoned for years next to the Police station. This was 1993 things are different now. Being rural area the police were hard enough to track down mind any rightful owner. You assume their advice on procedure is correct but maybe a grey area even back then. I was hoping just to save it from the crusher not a profit making exercise as it always looks a shame retro cars are often left to rot away sometimes owners are ill, away or otherwise.
|
|
Traction and horsepower is nearing perfection
|
|
GT4ME
Posted a lot
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 1,729
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 9:25:40 GMT
|
From a moral point of view it's theft IMO. Not something I could ever do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 9:31:02 GMT
|
Just because someone believes they have a right to something doesn't mean they do, if that could stand up in court no one would be able to be charged with theft.
Judge "why did you take that car son"
Thief "it looked like it had been used in a while so I believe I had a right to remove it"
Judge "ok son, off you go"
The dvla are not complicit, all they do is hand out a new v5 in someone's name that clearly states on the front "this is not proof of ownership". The police won't be complicit because do you really think they would stand up in court and admit to giving out bad advice that resulted in the theft of a car? The police give out bad advice all the time, just because they are police doesn't mean they know the law inside out, it's always best to double check before taking a coppers word as gospel. The council tend to remove cars themselves or get a 3rd party to do it for them, I've never heard of them asking members of the public to remove cars for them? Even if they did it would need to be a car that the council had a right to remove themselves, unpaid lock up, parked on prohibited land or something. If a cars parked legally I can't see how it's any business of the council?
Surely the only people who could use that to get off a theft charge would be someone can prove that they do actually have authority to remove it, like the land owner or something along those lines.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sept 11, 2015 10:12:38 GMT
|
Just because someone believes they have a right to something doesn't mean they do, if that could stand up in court no one would be able to be charged with theft. Judge "why did you take that car son" Thief "it looked like it had been used in a while so I believe I had a right to remove it" Judge "ok son, off you go" Conveniently missing the bit of the conversation where the 'thief' tells the Judge what he did between seeing the car and taking possession of it... ;-) There are numerous stories of people claiming abandoned cars (including instances where the council have allowed members of the public to take the car if it remained unclaimed) but no stories (that I've ever heard of at least) of anyone being charged with theft after they've gone through the correct procedure. Do you know of any? If the Police, the council and the DVLA have all given their 'blessing' for the removal of the vehicle, no court in the land is going to charge the new 'owner' with theft - I'm quite surprised you suggest otherwise. The police are the law(ish), the council 'own' the road and the DVLA are in charge of vehicle registrations. If you have permission from all three to remove the vehicle, then you can remove the vehicle. If the car is untaxed and uninsured on public land then it's not parked legally. Indeed, the council probably have a legal obligation to have it removed! There are two issues here - one is the legality - which, when it comes down to it, will be a black and white issue. And then there's the moral/ethical side of this argument which is ultimately what the contention is about. Would I attempt to claim a car I thought was abandoned? Yes, I probably would. Would I give the car back to the former owner if they came back to claim it? Yes I probably would.
|
|
|
|
|