Ray Singh
Posted a lot
More German exotica in my garage now
Posts: 1,985
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A bit of a rambling - its early in the morning. Am i behind the times here - please correct me if required. Many years back, enthusiasts could buy cars like a MG, Stag etc for peanuts and hide in their grages/man caves tinkering to thier hearts content. The wife would never bother then as a new pattern wing was a few quid and the car itself was hardly costly. Over the last few years, even the unloved classics prices have surged to a point where a true honest enthusiast cannot afford these cars. So who is actually buying them? I read that it is the rich who are buying them up as interest rates are so low. But seriously, Will a millionaire be out lookng for a 1986 Seirra 1.6L emax? Will that car impress Lady Penelope at the tennis club, or look classy as it draws into the Ritz? The prices for classics have escalated far beyond inflation and not in line with the standard wage in this country. I watched a classic car show a few years ago, and the presenter used the phrase - They don't make old cars any more - hence the prices are rocketing..... When wil it stop? Have i missed the boat? Quickly rushes to autotrader to find a Boxster 2.5/2.7 and a Merc 190E/300CE before the Prince of Persia buys them all up!
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Ryannn
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,421
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Almost all cars go through a cycle of reducing prices as they age, followed by a large number being scrapped which make the remaining ones more of a commodity pushing the price back up. If you think about when cars like the Stag were cheap, they were probably a similar age to the cheap cars of today. There are plenty of 15yr-20yr old cars kicking around for a couple of hundred quid still. I picked up a Mondeo ST24 for £200 recently, it's 17yrs old now.
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cheo
Part of things
Posts: 17
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If you pick up a copy of Classic Car Buyer or Weekly, both have sections for cars under £1000, which often include all kinds of odd or interesting things.
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I suppose it depends on what type of car your after, my cars vary from a 1964 radford mini , - to a 1983 e23 with a manual box - right up to my daily 1987 309 diesel,.i get classic car weekly, and classic car buyer , also go to some auctions if I have the time .
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THE_Liam
Yorkshire and The Humber
If at first you don't succeed... HAMMERS.
Posts: 1,363
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PHUQ
Part of things
Posts: 861
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Plenty of 70's stuff still about for not much money, and even 50's and 60's if you look beyond blue ovals, convertibles and sporting pedigree.
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Plenty of 70's stuff still about for not much money, and even 50's and 60's if you look beyond blue ovals, convertibles and sporting pedigree. This nails it, 100%. Even if you do want some proper classics, like a Brit roadster or a Yank tank, they're out there but you're not going to get the 'iconic' ones for buttons.
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Nuts, just nuts. These used to be £20,000 which I thought was expensive. I wonder what it'll actually sell for...
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'03 Porsche 996 C2 3.6 - Sort of Retro '84 Porsche 924 - Definitely Retro!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,269
Club RR Member Number: 170
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IMHO it is down to many things: - The Internet - This can been a blessing and a curse. It has prevented people from buying botched things but it also means that people are willing to spend on after being 'educated' instead of buying bodged wrecks. It also means opinions of what people think of a car travel far and wide.
- House prices - with house prices becoming silly people are willing to look for alternative forms of investment. Old cars are one of them, albeit not the best.
- Easily obtainable credit ; People before would attempt to haggle or accept they could not buy the car. With the advent of cheap credit people are willing to stretch that bit further.
- Cars in vogue ; IMO this appears to be popular cars that are over 30 years old.
- Older generation ; I know of many people who wished to own a certain car ; now they have bought what they need from life for the best part they have the cash to splash.
- More capitalistic society?
- A truer value being seen ; the internet has helped here but also buyers have become better at knowing what to look out for and to see what their choices are.
- More classic car programs, further fuelling the investment aspect.
- The internet?
While I know your comment about the MGBs were meant in jest Ray Singh an MGB that was not going to be a moneypit were never all that cheap ; there was far more bodged examples out there than there were now and they were royal moneypits unless people were willing to continue bodging them. The pattern parts rusted before your eyes (BTDT) and the cosher parts were never massively cheap ; I remember scoffing at £250 a wing for an MGB 10 years ago. To think they are close to £500 now . As for FG items, forget them, you'd pay a bodyshop more to make them look right! My first 'B at £600 had wings of filler all round, a slipping overdrive and a tired interior to be brutally honest and people thought I had a bargain :/). My Second 'B was a little cheaper (£400) and bar the wings of filler and tired interior it was the better car. Ask anyone on the street however and they would have picked my first 'B... The cheapest cars I have owned in all honesty have been the pricier ones. On very rare occasions I have been lucky but not always. If you had told me your budget last year you possibly could have stretched to my 951! Again, my S2 cost WAY more to own than my Turbo and the Turbo was the pricier buy. There are still cheap retros out there but you have to be willing to battle with the global 'unwanted' image. But it only takes one to turn that image on its head . Finally, retro ideals have changed. I remember a decade ago when Practical Classics did a buyer's guide on Peugeot 205 GTi and Ford Escort (albeit MkIIIs). Those cars back then were around 12-20 years old, around the same age as my Clio you could argue. Maybe they were going for the future classics theme. Now, such cars (like my Clio) are not considered to be future classiscs, and I wouldn't consider them either, despite enjoying my Clio as a daily. However, as you have seen with the Boxsters such cars if bought with care are not a bad way to have fun and some reliability in the mix in addition to being quite a cheap purchase. Touchwood my Clio has been a great steer and sturdy daily steed. This also applies to 1990 cars ; you cannot call an E36 BMW expensive for example, albeit the M3s are beginning to finally climb, possibly as a result of the poor examples being broken for spares.
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Last Edit: Aug 7, 2015 22:51:27 GMT by ChasR
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It depends what you want There are bargains to be had if you avoid "scene tax" (Ford, VW, 60s/70s sportscars) motors. £500 will get you a choice of rough but near-MOT unfashionable Retros (70s BL, Rootes ...) which are ideal to tinker with in a mancave £2k will get you a very tidy example v see sig for proof of the theory
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mikeymk
Part of things
'85 Polo Coupe S 1.6 16v
Posts: 931
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Couple more factors i think..
Scrappage scheme - a lot of old cars were lost, particularly 80's stuff, so there's less to go around.
Ageing moderns - people held onto simple cars of yesteryear for longer. But 10-15yo cars now are developing all manner of faults deep within the modern management systems. Various sensors etc going, MoT failures with big labour costs to put right, squeezing people into buying new or classic - again, not enough classics to go around.
Fashion - unfortunately, the desire for classics isn't just a practical one. It's a desire fueled by 'stanced' classics and trendy modified stuff they've seen on the Discovery Channel. Wanting to be seen in a classic car with broken suspension and 'ratted' paint has brought even more to a wounded market.
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Supply and demand...I've mainly messed with old Yanks and seen this happen. Tri-Chevies have always been popular and prices have quadrupled, sometimes more, for the two door coupes as they've gotten rarer. The two-door coupe buyer starts to buy Ford/Mopar, previously cheap and cheerful, which makes savvy sellers put the prices up (I bought a two door plymouth in 1998 for under 3k shipped, the same car now would be 10k+ easily). Then the next most desirable model starts to rise, and the next one, until the most undesirable (4 door sedan?) which you could previously buy for buttons has sometimes risen in price tenfold. This has happened to the point where cars you couldn't give away (80s Caprices etc) are sometimes fetching 6k upwards. Some cars are still cheap due to numbers available (80s/90s Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs unfortunately!) but good examples of these are starting to rise. All that said, unaffordable to genuine enthusiasts? Does this imply that if you've done alright for yourself you must be a pretender? (BTW, I can only afford a Fox so I'm the lowest of the low at the minute )
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Does it really matter where the market is going? As of now, there are still plenty of cars that can be bought for next to nothing, and the internet has made it so much easier to find parts and maintain them, even solving their design faults.
Be flexible on what model you want and you'll find bargains even in ten years' time. It's fairly easy to guess roughly which cars won't stay cheap: if it looks good, or has good performance, as soon as it's older than 20 years its value will go up unless it has a terrible reputation in which case it's nearer 30 years.
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Supply and demand...I've mainly messed with old Yanks and seen this happen. Tri-Chevies have always been popular and prices have quadrupled, sometimes more, for the two door coupes as they've gotten rarer. The two-door coupe buyer starts to buy Ford/Mopar, previously cheap and cheerful, which makes savvy sellers put the prices up (I bought a two door plymouth in 1998 for under 3k shipped, the same car now would be 10k+ easily). Then the next most desirable model starts to rise, and the next one, until the most undesirable (4 door sedan?) which you could previously buy for buttons has sometimes risen in price tenfold. This has happened to the point where cars you couldn't give away (80s Caprices etc) are sometimes fetching 6k upwards. Some cars are still cheap due to numbers available (80s/90s Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs unfortunately!) but good examples of these are starting to rise. All that said, unaffordable to genuine enthusiasts? Does this imply that if you've done alright for yourself you must be a pretender? (BTW, I can only afford a Fox so I'm the lowest of the low at the minute ) You've said exactly what was on my mind, but much better than I could. In a way the American car scene has suffered from "Scene Tax" well before that term was even invented. I mean that fairly humdrum saloons (sorry sedans) and trucks that wouldn't get a second glance in their home country have been considered something special over here just because they're Yanks, and over valued accordingly. Anyway "affordable" is in the eyes or wallet of the beholder, same as with modern cars, houses or anything else. I think if you've got the skill and time to take on a project then bargains can still be found especially if you're fairly broad minded. Obviously if you just want a sixties sports car then an eighties hatchback probably isn't going to satisfy you.
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Marinas, chevettes, avengers and vivas are all still relatively cheap rwd fun
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Over the last few years, even the unloved classics prices have surged to a point where a true honest enthusiast cannot afford these cars. Who says that "a true honest enthusiast" can't earn a decent wage? A person's income and their enthusiasm for cars are not really connected. I have met plenty of serious, honest car enthusiasts who have multiple cars worth six figures each. I've also met some other serious car enthusiasts who drive cars that are worth about a week's wages. I think what you are trying to say is that you have fixed your definition of a classic car at a specific era, eg. 1965-1975 British cars. Obviously, as these cars age, they will appreciate in value! If you were looking at an MG-B 20 years ago, then by now you should be looking at an MG-F! The increasing refinement of cars has meant that today's 20 year old cars look much closer to a new car than ever before in history. Think of the difference between a car made in 1935 to 1955, and then a car from 1995 to 2015.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Over the last few years, even the unloved classics prices have surged to a point where a true honest enthusiast cannot afford these cars. Who says that "a true honest enthusiast" can't earn a decent wage? A person's income and their enthusiasm for cars are not really connected. indeed. just because somone is harder working or more astute with money than yourself so they have more disposable income to spend on hobbies doesnt make them more or less of an enthusiast than yourself. there seems to be the preconcieved view here that if you throw money around getting someone else to do work on your cars for you rather than doing it yourself, you are 'less' of an enthusiast....
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Ryannn
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,421
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If you were looking at an MG-B 20 years ago, then by now you should be looking at an MG-F! Ive been trying to think of a modern day example, this is probably the best one! I've just struggled to get a measly £300 for an MGF. My grandad tells me of his days as a car dealer when he couldn't give things like minis and chevettes away, good comparison!
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It's all relative...I bought my 1st house in 1987, I paid 19k for it. Today it is worth probably 150k. The same year I bought a lovely 1 owner '73 VW Beetle with 12 months MOT for £500. Today that would probably be 5k.
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