Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Feb 13, 2017 13:37:21 GMT
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With the Vitesse valves and the port work you can get up to 50bhp more from the heads - After that the law of diminishing returns kicks in and a lot more material has to come out of the heads, especially the exhausts as they become very restrictive. I think this is a stock back cut wasted valve head head with the valve throats taken out a reasonable amount - These have a 1mm seat    I am sorry for clogging the thread but I thought I would also show a seat test - When people lap in valves they assume that becasue they have a nice grey line they have lapped the valve and have a full seal - What you should do is blue the valve and check. In the pictures below you can see that there an area with a nice grey seat from lapping but no blue - so not sealed. You keep lapping until the complete seat marks blue. Grinding paste is thick stuff so you get a grey line everytime but not a seal.  |
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melle
South West
It'll come out in the wash.
Posts: 2,011
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Feb 13, 2017 15:35:41 GMT
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Using engineer's blue when lapping valves is a very good tip, never thought of that!
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www.saabv4.com'70 Saab 96 V4 "The Devil's Own V4" '77 Saab 95 V4 van conversion project '88 Saab 900i 8V
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Feb 13, 2017 19:49:35 GMT
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I just dented them in the middle which had the effect of shrinking the edges slightly, then hitting the edge to swivel them round, then pulled out with pliers. Best to use a fairly blunt punch to avoid just making a hole in the plug. TBH it was the first time I'd ever changed core plugs that weren't leaking so they were tougher to get out than crumbly rusty ones! I'm sure they would have lasted but there's no way of knowing without removing them. BTW I'm watching your build with interest - you're doing a fantastic job! Thanks. Please keep posting up the excellent progress photos. I'm already daydreaming about having a shiny new engine on an engine stand in my flat! |
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Feb 13, 2017 21:48:34 GMT
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I'm lucky I have a very understanding wife! TBH it's the first engine I have properly rebuilt, so I'm pretty excited about it too. I've done a few head jobs, and rebuilt a handful of 2 strokes but this is all a learning curve for me. I'm glad that I've got no plans to have it on the road for a month or two, as it means I can just take my time and come back another day if things go wrong, rather than feeling under any pressure. Interesting stuff about valves... I was undecided about valves, but this is all swaying me towards replacing them! Am I right in thinking that all the later valves are now the waisted type? The alternative is holding back for now and building up a nice pair of heads when I do the future planned carb upgrades... |
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Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Feb 13, 2017 22:38:02 GMT
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If in no hurry, and you have future plans about further mods, then I would suggest picking up a couple of good 4.6 heads and then get them worked over a little.
All later valves should be waisted stem types. Thinking about it I should have a full set of waisted stem valves kicking about here somewhere taken from some of my heads, you are welcome to them if I can find the things.
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Feb 13, 2017 23:34:39 GMT
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Thanks, that's very kind of you and there obviously would be beer tokens in it for you :-) If you can't find them then no worries - a new set is only £40 so well worth it from what you say! I've had a look at my valves and the exhaust ones are waisted, but not the inlets. Yes, where do you stop! A change in front cover to the lip seal type with the bigger capacity pump is a good move. Incidentally the front cover is still the early type, but must have been modified in the past to take the later seal. A real mix! |
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Last Edit: Feb 13, 2017 23:36:30 GMT by matfenwick
Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Feb 14, 2017 10:25:50 GMT
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Thanks, that's very kind of you and there obviously would be beer tokens in it for you :-) If you can't find them then no worries - a new set is only £40 so well worth it from what you say! I've had a look at my valves and the exhaust ones are waisted, but not the inlets. Incidentally the front cover is still the early type, but must have been modified in the past to take the later seal. A real mix! I found a box of 8 EFI exhausts and 6 EFI inlets! And another box of half a dozen modified inlet valves with various cut backs and seat widths. I will ask an old mate of mine if he has a set. I'm pretty sure he was trying to lumber me with a brand new set of stock EFI valves a short while ago. I took the spare set of group A steel rockers and shafts  but left the valves. Vitesse/EFI engines have the waisted stem inlets. I am sure a late P6 engine I had - 9.25:1 CR had that front cover - small oil pump and a lip seal - not sure if the block was a rope seal type though. I went the cheap route with that one and just slung in a RR3.9 with the P6 flywheel. The bigger bore engines always produce more power as there is less valve shrouding. ETA Exhausts are not classed as waisted, but the do have a small neck between the stem and head. |
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Last Edit: Feb 14, 2017 10:28:35 GMT by Darkspeed
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Feb 14, 2017 21:09:47 GMT
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That would be great if he still has them, seeing as I'll be going down that road anyway! Thanks for the pointers - it's things like that I wouldn't have found out by myself.
I wonder if there was a bit of crossover around 1976, as parts were being experimented with or used up. Or could be that my engine has been made up of bits and pieces - it's certainly been apart in the past judging from the amount of gasket sealant floating around!
From what I've read the pattern rockers tend to let a lot of oil past which can flood the top end. Mine seem to be in good condition, fortunate given the price of genuine rockers! I might just replace the shafts as they are fairly cheap. I've read that you should replace the rockers too if worn as they tend to pick up abrasive particles but surely just replacing the shafts is no worse than leaving the originals in there?
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Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,883
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Feb 14, 2017 22:16:54 GMT
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Easy to check the wear on the rockers they can move diagonally on the shaft - they wear on the underside of shaft which is natural as it's the thrust side. Good original low mileage stuff is the way to go as a lot of the replacement stuff around is not of great quality. To check the rockers for wear it's the socket for the push rod and the steel tips to look at. These are modified Federal steel rockers - they have oil holes welded up to prevent over oiling - but that inidicates the area's to check for wear.  Slide the rocker against the springs to check for shaft underside for wear - There was no wear on these as the engine had done less than a few thousand miles.  The cheap shafts have created even more issues as many of the cheap replacements appear to be undersize and worse in use than worn originals. If you think that original rockers are a bit pricey - the cost of some second hand stuff can make your eys's water.  I would not use the alloy originals if building a hot version - I would use the Federal Mogal steel replacements  |
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May 31, 2017 11:38:42 GMT
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Yes, there is plenty to update! Sorry for leaving it mid rebuild; I'll post up some photos and video later.
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Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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May 31, 2017 15:11:11 GMT
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Oooooh a video, that sounds promising. Does that mean its running?
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May 31, 2017 19:46:32 GMT
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So, where did I leave it? Pistons cleaned up, ready to go in with new rings.  Piston going in (block has been decked slightly).  Big end shells lubed up  Cam lubed up with EP lubricant.  Composite head gaskets.  Heads skimmed to compensate for the thicker gaskets, and valve guides (which were in good condition) modified to accept the later seals.  A couple of the valve springs had settled after 10 years of not being run, so I replaced them all.  Original rocker shafts had a wear lip.  But some I rescued from a scrap (seized) engine were good - just a bit of polishing on the underside. So they were cleaned up and reassembled.    Never had a problem with cork rocker cover gaskets, and like Morgan owners, I quite enjoy having a functional part of my car made from wood!  Engine almost in - this took several hours of different angles. Had to put it in at 45 degrees across the engine bay in the end, then swivel it under the bulkhead lip.  Engine was primed with a drill down the distributor hole, until oil came spurting out of the rockers.  First start was nerve wracking, but I only ran it for a few seconds as there was no coolant. Second run was longer, so I could break the cam in. You can hear the clatter until the lifters had pumped up: |
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Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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May 31, 2017 21:14:13 GMT
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Fantastic stuff. I have been striping my V8 ready for a rebuild. Looking forward to getting to the stage of first start.
How did you machine the guides to accept the later rangie seals? Were they removed first or done still in the head?
By the way... great looking 80's instrument cluster!
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May 31, 2017 21:58:08 GMT
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Thanks - I'd seen your engine stripdown post so watching with interest! I didn't do any of the machining myself, but used ACR in Deeside. They did the guides in situ; I guess there would be no point in trying to remove them intact when you could just put in new. Think that it was £30 for that work. I forgot to mention, but for a birthday present SWMBO paid for this machining!  Yes, the whole interior is very 80s.  Actually the rev counter reminds me of an SD1...not like Hyundai to copy anything... |
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Last Edit: May 31, 2017 21:58:50 GMT by matfenwick
Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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May 31, 2017 22:33:32 GMT
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Love this car! Don't think I've seen one before, very cool. Good to see the Rover V8 in and running too
Cheers,
Drew
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2001 Mk4 Golf - Not retro yet but getting there
Some cars I've owned:
'91 Renault Clio 1.4 RT
'96 Peugeot 306 2.0 XSi (the one that got away)
'96 Vauxhall Astra Euro'96 Gold edition
'97 Renault Laguna 2.0 RT
'98 Mk3 Golf GTI Colour Concept
'00 PT Cruiser
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njw
Part of things
Posts: 226
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I miss owning a V8, they've got a certain character that no other engine has (except a V12 perhaps?). I always look forward to and dread the first start in equal measure after doing a big job because you know that it'll probably be fine but then there's always that dodgy part or bolt you forgot to tighten!
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This car is so cool, i'd love to know what the original owner would say to you if he ever saw it out and about with its V8 power! What an awesome super sleeper!
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He'd probably be amazed just to see it still exist!
I let a mate drive it this weekend (he's a motoring journalist so I trusted him with it!) and took a brief video of him pulling away. It's only the second time I've heard it driving from the outside, and it just sounds sooo good considering what it is!
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Sometimes, others may not understand why you like a car so much. Sometimes, you may not even understand why you like a car so much. But none of that matters; all that matters is that you like the car, and having it makes you happy.
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Sounds great man. Very cool
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but left the valves.
