sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Modern day peoples V8sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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After seeing that Rover SD1 on ebay with the Lexus V8, it's been playing through my mind, what are the best modern style V8's out there which are perfect for pillaging into older shells? To many the pre-historic Rover V8 is still king of the V8's, with the smallblock Chevy's and Ford's for those with the extra £££'s. This hasn't seemed to have changed much since the 80's. I'm seriously contemplating the viability of dropping a modern euro V8 into my SD1, I know most of the big manufacturers have their own engine families, but what the best of the bunch? So the assumption is that aftermarket fuel and ignition will be used so no need to worry about trying to fit half a German luxury saloon in the dashboard to make the engine run! Things like sump size/shape, will it run on lpg without melting, how wide, how much boost on standard internals, what's the best engine codes/donors, do they come with good manual 'boxes, what are realistic power outputs? So what would the people of RR consider to be the modern day peoples V8?
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So my vote is for the Jaguar AJ8
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You've already mentioned it, the Lexus V8 is starting to look like the 'new' RV8. Lots of standalone management options, or you can pull the donor car (which you get for buttons) apart and build the whole thing into your project. They're reliable too, even with big mileage on. Not sure how widely used they are in the traditional rod building scene though.
Some rod builders were talking about this at a meet I was at late last year, they get a bad rep because they're not the RV8, or an SBC/BBC, or a Ford. I get the feeling that if they weren't worried about bad reactions from other rodders they would be more widely used, not that they're unheard of. It was a bit funny hearing these guys (you know the type) sounding a bit sheepish about having their feelings hurt by cruel remarks about the non-Yank engine. I said I'd do it just to curse word people off, they said that's all well and good but they put a lot of time and money into them.
One guy said he liked the mix'n'match way that you can go SBC/BBC/Ford and have a few different 'box options and a few different rear end options and you get to have a unique-ish drivetrain as a result. The Lexus option, end to end, gives you such a good starting point that you don't need to change much (beyond the manual/auto decision) so you end up with something much less unique.
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Last Edit: Feb 2, 2015 14:46:00 GMT by Battles
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Modern day peoples V8sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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So my vote is for the Jaguar AJ8 Forgot about those, will add to my mental list You've already mentioned it, the Lexus V8 is starting to look like the 'new' RV8. Lots of standalone management options, or you can pull the donor car (which you get for buttons) apart and build the whole thing into your project. They're reliable too, even with big mileage on. Not sure how widely used they are in the traditional rod building scene though. Some rod builders were talking about this at a meet I was at late last year, they get a bad rep because they're not the RV8, or an SBC/BBC, or a Ford. I get the feeling that if they weren't worried about bad reactions from other rodders they would be more widely used, not that they're unheard of. It was a bit funny hearing these guys (you know the type) sounding a bit sheepish about having their feelings hurt by cruel remarks about the non-Yank engine. I said I'd do it just to curse word people off, they said that's all well and good but they put a lot of time and money into them. One guy said he liked the mix'n'match way that you can go SBC/BBC/Ford and have a few different 'box options and a few different rear end options and you get to have a unique-ish drivetrain as a result. The Lexus option, end to end, gives you such a good starting point that you don't need to change much (beyond the manual/auto decision) so you end up with something much less unique. The thing is, the yank stuff isn't common over this side of the pond, and for the pick of the bunch LS1, it costs ££££'s to get a runner unless you're really lucky. The Rover as good as it is, to me still feels like an Early Learning Centre my first V8! They are very well trodden paths, and the prices of stuff reflect it, example is seeing how much a basic manual gearbox for a Rover costs to buy at the present going rate. The Lexus is probably one of the more popular modern engines, out of the box about 230-260bhp but to get it on a manual is a lot of work or expense. They don't have the 'traditional' look, but for converting fuel and £££ into sounds and go, it's hard to ignore them! Others that are on my mind are the Audi and BMW V8's, there are a few conversions with those, and manual 'boxes seem more popular...
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omega
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,060
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So my vote is for the Jaguar AJ8 but arnt these almost impossible to wire up?
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heathrobinson
Part of things
Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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Modern day peoples V8heathrobinson
@heathrobinson
Club Retro Rides Member 111
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The Audi jobs are supposed to be a bit of a pig to wire, but I've seen A8's go for less than a grand with LPG on, and 300odd BHP. That can't be bad, if the wiring can be dealt with.
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I reckon the Audi lump is a good shout... There was a Mk1 MR2 on the 'bay with a 4.2litre version shoved in it, must be absolutely hilarious!!! Wiring would be a pig, but if you are methodical whilst removing all the unnecessary stuff it will be possible, albeit brain scrambling!! Mind you, the more difficult it is, the more rewarding the final result....
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'96 Volvo 850T5 x2, '97 Alfa 145 Cloverleaf '96 Alfa 155, '91 XR2i 2.0 Zetec (sold), '88 BMW 520i slug (sold), '81 Escort Mk3 Project, '68 Mk1 Escort Estate, Berlingo Parts Chaser.
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Modern day peoples V8sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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My initial thinking was ignore all the 'leccy stuff, think about what they did 'back-in-the-day', who left the standard carburetors on the V8's? Worst case scenario would be fitting some Ford EDIS coilpacks on and quad webers or something similar? How cool would that be?
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So my vote is for the Jaguar AJ8 but arnt these almost impossible to wire up? I'm pretty sure there is a thread on one of the transit forums about someone planning a jag transplant and one of the tuning guys said dependant on exactly which ECU it was it should be possible to get it running on factory electronics after reflashing (or whatever the technical term is) with a lot of delete options on sensors and immobilisers etc. Failing that mega squirt would do it...
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Wouldn't any engine require a separate dedicated ECU / programming for the LPG injectors ?
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The Audi jobs are supposed to be a bit of a pig to wire, but I've seen A8's go for less than a grand with LPG on, and 300odd BHP. That can't be bad, if the wiring can be dealt with. A friend had one for a while and did a few track days with it (before munching the second gearbox) they are unseemly quick for a big luxury car, his was 155mph limited though so you would need to loose that if that's standard and yes I saw it on the limiter (or what it thought was the limit as I had no way to check it) twice
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Wouldn't any engine require a separate dedicated ECU / programming for the LPG injectors ? Megasquirt has been made to run LPG injectors, I think ms3 has the facility to easily run different maps for 2 fuel types.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Modern day peoples V8Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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what is comes down to is its still easier and cheaper to source, buy and fit a large capacity american v8, once you get into the management and that to make any of these modern euro/asian alternatives running outside of the donor car.
only this week i bought a totally complete big block caddy with th400, which i saw running and driving before it was removed. the price? £300. youd stuggle to get a lexus engine donor for that. last year i sold a 4 bolt main sbc/th400 from a dayvan for £600. its still quite acheivable to get a decent running complete package for under £500 quid.
also, youre talking huge sums of money to manualise a lexus or bmw v8. far, far cheaper to do it to a sbc or sbf, and most other american v8s.
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Modern day peoples V8sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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what is comes down to is its still easier and cheaper to source, buy and fit a large capacity american v8, once you get into the management and that to make any of these modern euro/asian alternatives running outside of the donor car. only this week i bought a totally complete big block caddy with th400, which i saw running and driving before it was removed. the price? £300. youd stuggle to get a lexus engine donor for that. last year i sold a 4 bolt main sbc/th400 from a dayvan for £600. its still quite acheivable to get a decent running complete package for under £500 quid. also, youre talking huge sums of money to manualise a lexus or bmw v8. far, far cheaper to do it to a sbc or sbf, and most other american v8s. Yes you can still buy running yank stuff for good money, but how many people do the numbers before commiting to a project? If I did that I'd just get a car on finance and give up on life. Getting a modern V8 to run in an old shell by whatever means would just be a cool project, and that trumps being sensible 7 days a week
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,961
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Modern day peoples V8stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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I don't think anything will ever replace the Rover V8 for usability. Yeah they're not mega powerful but that's a good thing in a lot of cases. You could bolt them into pretty much anything, they'd sound the part, move a bit more briskly but in most cases (and especially in auto form) the rest of the car (brakes, axle and suspesion) could either cope as stock or with minor upgrades.
Start dumping 250bhp and 250+ ft/lbs through most classics and there's a whole lot of other work needed to make it safe and reliable, which greatly adds to the expense and complication.
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Modern day peoples V8sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Depends on if you talking about a 50's-70's classic which only started out with 50bhp, then a 150bhp RV8 would triple the power output. Think of later classics from the 80's and 90's, then 100bhp is probably a fair average as standard, so to triple the power you've got to be gunning for 300bhp to start with!
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What about the later version of the RV8 - up to 5.0 ltr available.
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The 3 that come to mind are:
-bmw m60/62 -audi v8 -merc m113 v8
All are alloy, all have a manual gearbox option.
The bmw has the advantage of being able to run on it's original ecu outside of the car, and having a sump that is easy to modify. But it also makes the least hp at 286 standard, it will happily take 7psi of boost though...
The audi v8 has the annoyance of a horrendously expensive timing belt job, (or a chain on the newer ones) which is not for the faint hearted. The boosted versions are very powerfull, but even the old 4.2 abh gives 340hp.
The merc m113 can be had for reasonable money, but to get a manual box you need to borrow it from the v6. Very reliable, compact, and the most powerfull here. The supercharged versions put out up to 510hp
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Modern day peoples V8sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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The 3 that come to mind are: -bmw m60/62 -audi v8 -merc m113 v8 All are alloy, all have a manual gearbox option. The bmw has the advantage of being able to run on it's original ecu outside of the car, and having a sump that is easy to modify. But it also makes the least hp at 286 standard, it will happily take 7psi of boost though... The audi v8 has the annoyance of a horrendously expensive timing belt job, (or a chain on the newer ones) which is not for the faint hearted. The boosted versions are very powerfull, but even the old 4.2 abh gives 340hp. The merc m113 can be had for reasonable money, but to get a manual box you need to borrow it from the v6. Very reliable, compact, and the most powerfull here. The supercharged versions put out up to 510hp That's interesting about the BMW having a seperate ecu, probably why they appear in conversions to smaller BMW's. Just something about the BMW badge that I can't get over! I'll have a look at the Audi timing belt replacement, I'd have assumed for a conversion doing it on the floor it wouldn't be a difficult job, different story in it's native environment! I really haven't given the Merc V8 lumps any thought, just a quick flick through Wikipedia and they seem a bit too oddball, and presumably the earlier ones are still cast iron block?
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The 3 that come to mind are: -bmw m60/62 -audi v8 -merc m113 v8 All are alloy, all have a manual gearbox option. The bmw has the advantage of being able to run on it's original ecu outside of the car, and having a sump that is easy to modify. But it also makes the least hp at 286 standard, it will happily take 7psi of boost though... The audi v8 has the annoyance of a horrendously expensive timing belt job, (or a chain on the newer ones) which is not for the faint hearted. The boosted versions are very powerfull, but even the old 4.2 abh gives 340hp. The merc m113 can be had for reasonable money, but to get a manual box you need to borrow it from the v6. Very reliable, compact, and the most powerfull here. The supercharged versions put out up to 510hp That's interesting about the BMW having a seperate ecu, probably why they appear in conversions to smaller BMW's. Just something about the BMW badge that I can't get over! I'll have a look at the Audi timing belt replacement, I'd have assumed for a conversion doing it on the floor it wouldn't be a difficult job, different story in it's native environment! I really haven't given the Merc V8 lumps any thought, just a quick flick through Wikipedia and they seem a bit too oddball, and presumably the earlier ones are still cast iron block? The bmw v8's which have usable ecu's live in the e34 and e39 5 series, the earlier the car, the easier the wiring is. You have the option of 5 or 6 speed gearbox'es. I run a 4.0 m60 in an e30 with a 6 speed manual, it's on the original bosch ecu with no problems. It's the cost of the parts on the audi timing gear that is the problem, I did the belt, idler pulleys, tensioner, rocker cover gaskets and water pump on a 4.2. It was over 500 in pattern parts alone. The merc m113 engine is a hidden gem! It's all alloy, and tough as they come. Merc stopped using iron blocks for the v8's back in the 70's. It will also take a stadalone managment system very easily, and parts are cheap. I know of 2 old 190's currently being fitted with these.
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Last Edit: Feb 4, 2015 22:15:55 GMT by carat 3.6
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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