lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 16, 2014 18:26:17 GMT
|
I've been a bit undecided about whether or not to keep my Mercedes but I've realised recently that it's just so useful and it would be difficult to replace I'll probably just keep it. To that end to address its lack of forced induction! I know a lot of people will say just swap the lump out for something like an om606 3 litre 6 pot but i don't want to do an engine swap, i want to keep this on the road and not have it as another immobile project... In my head, if i get the bits i need ready like a complete kit i could probably swap it all on over a weekend and just lose the use of it for a day or two. So i was thinking id need: * Spare sump - tapped for turbo oil return * Spare exhaust manifold - blanked off at the normal exit and with a turbo flange cut/welded onto it in an appropriate position * A turbo of some description * Some pipework/silicone hoses couplers The idea i have is to do it simple at first at least. Turbo feeding straight into the original airbox with the filter removed, no intercooler to start with, match the exhaust exit of the turbo to the original system with some ingenuity and some flexi pipe, turn up the wick a little on the diesel pump (it doesn't self compensate for boost but if i just have it running smokey off boost it should be about right on boost with a bit of optimism) One bit i haven't worked out in my little mental plan is where to take the turbos oil feed from. I cant run a sandwich plate from the oil filter like a lot of home brew turbo conversion do because these engines have an old style canister filter that drops in housing near the top of the engine. Maybe this could have a a union tapped into the cover plate on top and used as a feed? Just a little introduction, I'll try get some pictures of my car and general engine shot up later. any thoughts and advice / help is more than welcome  Andy |
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 16, 2014 18:42:06 GMT
|
Not sure the non turbo lump will take boost, most Turbo engines have significant differences to their naturally aspirated brethren, stuff like stronger rods pistons lower compression and piston oil jets, sometimes integrated into the rods, boost compensation on the pump. www.youtube.com/channel/UCR9bEqWxOhmeT-vo88kyLFQThose guys are building a budget turbo 190d sticking with a 5 pot, they know a fair bit about them. |
| |
|
|
lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 16, 2014 19:20:15 GMT
|
|
I'll give that a look at now!
I know there are always differences between the na and forced induction diesel variants, and you are right the European market got a 190d 2.5 turbo and that had a different pump and under piston oil squirters.
However, in the grand scheme of things these engines are still ridiculously over engineered when compared to other supposedly reliable diesels from say the French camp. With that in mind i think putting a bar of boost through it might just shorten its life from a million miles down to 500,000 haha
I think the worst case scenario the head gasket will go first and if it does i can replace it and perhaps add something to reduce compression slightly.
Another thing to note is that the early factory Mercedes turbo diesels had no intercooler which not only reduces performance but causes a lot more heat / thermal shock which i believe was one of the reasons for the oil squirters. i plan to add an intercooler as soon as i have managed to make it work.
|
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 16, 2014 19:28:02 GMT
|
|
I'll give that a look at now!
I know there are always differences between the na and forced induction diesel variants, and you are right the European market got a 190d 2.5 turbo and that had a different pump and under piston oil squirters.
However, in the grand scheme of things these engines are still ridiculously over engineered when compared to other supposedly reliable diesels from say the French camp. With that in mind i think putting a bar of boost through it might just shorten its life from a million miles down to 500,000 haha
I think the worst case scenario the head gasket will go first and if it does i can replace it and perhaps add something to reduce compression slightly.
Another thing to note is that the early factory Mercedes turbo diesels had no intercooler which not only reduces performance but causes a lot more heat / thermal shock which i believe was one of the reasons for the oil squirters. i plan to add an intercooler as soon as i have managed to make it work.
|
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
ben-dover
Part of things
You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter...
Posts: 360
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 18:07:05 GMT
|
I'd imagine your after a little more power, not 1/4 mile records! From experience I would say it will be fine, I have had one of these engine apart and they are sturdy enough. For example the rods are thicker then Ford's 1.8td (plus better quality metals are used) and you can run reasonable boost levels through those (I had my own Escort td running 20psi with a Bosch pump and it was genuinely quick) although please note that running very high boost levels will shorten it's life/kill any engine eventually. To fit I would use a t-piece fitted to the oil pressure sensor as an oil feed for the turbo and as you say have a return fitted into the sump. Use a turbo from a td engine of the same capacity, (BMW/Omega td) that way all the hard work of matching the specs is done for you and the turbo will boost at a reasonable rpm. Petrol turbos are designed to boost at higher rpm's and wont be suitable for a diesel. Run the "boosted side" straight into the engine making sure the inlet is sealed and up to the job of handling the pressure as you mentioned the airbox as an input and I cant remember if these are metal or not. Might be worth seeing if you can get a td inlet (try a Ssangyong, they used an early merc td) Turn up the max fueling on the pump so it has light smoke when running around 10-15psi boost under load. More fuel=more heat, see below... I would also seriously recommend an intercooler and an exhaust gas temperature sensor/gauge as you want to control your combustion temperatures and keep them as low (close to std) as possible, run any boosted diesel with too hot combustion/exhaust temp and it WILL break! This is why Mercedes fitted piston oil squirters, they were fitted to cool the piston CROWNs and stop a Chernobyl from happening. You can fit the gauge when std and give the car a hard run, use this figure as a bench mark. You can control the temp using fuel adjustment as well as adjusting the boost level. If your sensible with the boost/fueling there's no reason why this would be no less reliable/long lived as std, they are brick out-houses strong and massively over engineered from std, real belts and braces approach. (See link, 600hp with std bottom end!) Or just fit it all, run 35 psi from a truck turbo whilst shouting plums's to the precautions and see out 500 miles in a cloud of un-burnt diesel smoke... Anyway, it will surprise you how much pulling power you get from a few psi, please don't get addicted and blow it up! |
| |
Last Edit: Nov 18, 2014 18:16:28 GMT by ben-dover
|
|
ben-dover
Part of things
You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter...
Posts: 360
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 18:14:10 GMT
|
Oh, the w123 uses the later 24v engine. But you get the idea!  |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 18:49:30 GMT
|
I'll give that a look at now! I know there are always differences between the na and forced induction diesel variants, and you are right the European market got a 190d 2.5 turbo and that had a different pump and under piston oil squirters. However, in the grand scheme of things these engines are still ridiculously over engineered when compared to other supposedly reliable diesels from say the French camp. With that in mind i think putting a bar of boost through it might just shorten its life from a million miles down to 500,000 haha I think the worst case scenario the head gasket will go first and if it does i can replace it and perhaps add something to reduce compression slightly. Another thing to note is that the early factory Mercedes turbo diesels had no intercooler which not only reduces performance but causes a lot more heat / thermal shock which i believe was one of the reasons for the oil squirters. i plan to add an intercooler as soon as i have managed to make it work. They are over engineered, but a bar of boost will kill your engine very quickly. Your diesel pump only has 5.5mm elements inside it, which cant give much more fuel than standard. The first thing to go will be the pistons, followed by the rods. If your really serious about turboing the 190 grab an early sprinter with the 2.9 turbo engine, then fit everything into your car. |
| |
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
|
|
lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 20:01:35 GMT
|
I'd imagine your after a little more power, not 1/4 mile records! From experience I would say it will be fine, I have had one of these engine apart and they are sturdy enough. For example the rods are thicker then Ford's 1.8td (plus better quality metals are used) and you can run reasonable boost levels through those (I had my own Escort td running 20psi with a Bosch pump and it was genuinely quick) although please note that running very high boost levels will shorten it's life/kill any engine eventually. To fit I would use a t-piece fitted to the oil pressure sensor as an oil feed for the turbo and as you say have a return fitted into the sump. Use a turbo from a td engine of the same capacity, (BMW/Omega td) that way all the hard work of matching the specs is done for you and the turbo will boost at a reasonable rpm. Petrol turbos are designed to boost at higher rpm's and wont be suitable for a diesel. Run the "boosted side" straight into the engine making sure the inlet is sealed and up to the job of handling the pressure as you mentioned the airbox as an input and I cant remember if these are metal or not. Might be worth seeing if you can get a td inlet (try a Ssangyong, they used an early merc td) Turn up the max fueling on the pump so it has light smoke when running around 10-15psi boost under load. More fuel=more heat, see below... I would also seriously recommend an intercooler and an exhaust gas temperature sensor/gauge as you want to control your combustion temperatures and keep them as low (close to std) as possible, run any boosted diesel with too hot combustion/exhaust temp and it WILL break! This is why Mercedes fitted piston oil squirters, they were fitted to cool the piston CROWNs and stop a Chernobyl from happening. You can fit the gauge when std and give the car a hard run, use this figure as a bench mark. You can control the temp using fuel adjustment as well as adjusting the boost level. If your sensible with the boost/fueling there's no reason why this would be no less reliable/long lived as std, they are brick out-houses strong and massively over engineered from std, real belts and braces approach. (See link, 600hp with std bottom end!) Anyway, it will surprise you how much pulling power you get from a few psi, please don't get addicted and blow it up! This pleases me, i think we are both reading from the same hymn sheet here, i even thought the same regarding an old BMW 2.5tds turbo. I do plan on using an intercooler after the intiail mock up, i suppose i might as well stick one on from the begining. I reckon the side mount intercooler from a B5 Passat tdi should be about the right sort of shape to fit in the available space to start with. Carat, i've heard of the issue with the 5.5mm jobbies in the pump being too small, someone put up a sort of how-to guide for fitting the bigger 6.5mm items from a different Merc pump, i'm guessing that would solve the problem. I'll keep an eye out for the bits from a sprinter, i could use that turbo, fuel pump/parts etc you say? WHat should i be putting in ebay's search bar then (engine code wise ets?) would the entire intake / exhaust manifold bolt up? |
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 20:10:25 GMT
|
|
re-sprinter, he means EVERYTHING, not just the turbo.
|
| |
|
|
lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 20:34:47 GMT
|
|
Ahh, well as i said, i'm not doing an engine swap I'm afraid, i want to turbo the lump thats in there!
But looking at a 2.9 sprinter cylinder head on ebay - its still a single cam 8 valve job like my engine so despite the difference in capacity, would the sprinter manifold bolt up to my head? as tyhe turbo mounts to the top centre it shouldnt foul the steering box either (unlike the manifold for the factory 190d turbo hence it not being available in right hand drive)
|
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
|
|
lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 18, 2014 20:35:07 GMT
|
|
*10 valve i meant of course...
|
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*10 valve i meant of course... Even if you did bolt all the manifolds on to your engine, the fuel pump still wont swap over. When people swap the internal elements in the diesel pumps, they have the electrical edc pump from the donor car. You would need to buy a pump to rob these from (the sprinter ones wont fit your pump either). Why don't you want to swap the engine over? This swap has been done a few times before. |
| |
Last Edit: Nov 19, 2014 10:00:40 GMT by carat 3.6
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
|
|
Mark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,097
|
|
Nov 19, 2014 11:04:37 GMT
|
|
An alternative is to buy an old C250td scrapper and use bits from that to turbo it, although I believe the manifold will foul your steering rack.
You'll need to get an OM602 turbo pump from ebay or have larger elements fitted, as well as an ALDA.
|
| |
|
|
ben-dover
Part of things
You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter...
Posts: 360
|
|
Nov 19, 2014 19:44:21 GMT
|
|
Not that I'm obsessed with Ssangyong's (worked there for a year) but the engine is an early merc 2.9 ltr. They have an in-line pump which has a throttle cable and from memory an exhaust manifold that positions the turbo level with the head. The immobiliser is just a solonoid valve on the fuel inlet pipe on the side of the pump, unscrew it and replace with a normal fitting. Might be worth trying to find a Musso in the breakers (could be hard...) and have a nose as I think everything you will need should be there. Not sure if the 2.5 and 2.9/3.0 heads are the same bolt pattern though but everything else should bolt on. (I may be wrong, correct if I am please)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2014 20:00:13 GMT
|
Not that I'm obsessed with Ssangyong's (worked there for a year) but the engine is an early merc 2.9 ltr. They have an in-line pump which has a throttle cable and from memory an exhaust manifold that positions the turbo level with the head. The immobiliser is just a solonoid valve on the fuel inlet pipe on the side of the pump, unscrew it and replace with a normal fitting. Might be worth trying to find a Musso in the breakers (could be hard...) and have a nose as I think everything you will need should be there. Not sure if the 2.5 and 2.9/3.0 heads are the same bolt pattern though but everything else should bolt on. (I may be wrong, correct if I am please) Spot on. |
| |
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
|
|
ben-dover
Part of things
You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter...
Posts: 360
|
|
Nov 19, 2014 20:29:57 GMT
|
Thank god for that! |
| |
|
|
lightyearman
Part of things
GYJDM - Grimsby based Japanese car club - Find us on Facebook
Posts: 639
|
|
Nov 19, 2014 20:34:32 GMT
|
|
SSangyong it is then! Thanks for your input and knowledge there guys, i'm going to get looking for a Ssangyong being broken. . .
|
| |
'89 Honda CRX siR Glassroof Flint black fully restored track beasty
'90 Nissan S13 Pignose - pass the mig wire
'86 Mini - matt orange, 13" Wellers, Project 2018
'97 LDV Convoy home built camper/tramper van
'04 Saab 9-5 Aero HOT. Anyone want it?
'91 Honda VFR400 NC30 17,000 km from new
'87 Honda XR80 4 stroke baby crosser
'03 Mini Cooper S - honestly, they are fun...
'15 VW T5.1 LWB daily brick
|
|
hario
Part of things
S202 C300STD
Posts: 421 
|
|
Dec 15, 2014 13:47:16 GMT
|
|
If you fitted a turbo to your otherwise completely standard 2.5d it would be more powerful simply through more thorough fuel combustion due to excess air molecules available for the fuel to interact with, you would find more power and better fuel economy depending on how you drive.
Diesels were originally retrofitted with turbos to reduce emmissions (and increase power).
I would suggest:
TD-04 from a subaru/mitsubishi Evo, £60 ebay and fabricate an adaptor from your original exhaust manifold outlet to the turbo using pipe bends and hacksawed flanges, oil press t-piece or sandwich plate as discussed.
And you can start to work out and fit an intercooler while youre still driving the car, just whip the bumper off and work out brackets / pipework etc and you can have it mounted and piped and ready to go before you do the turbo swap weekend. (Because they really might melt if you don't intercool old things when you turbo them)..
not sure on the Bosch IP on those old ones so idk element swaps, is it a Bosch M-pump?
|
| |
*S202 C300TD Wagon*
Installed:
OM606 & 722.6, Evo6 IC, S600AMG callipers & 345mm rotors. No catz. Leatherish seats.. Rust..
Future:
DIY manifolds & turbo compound build.
Built IP, & some kind of software. Less rust..
|
|
