Llewelyn_
Posted a lot
Hi everyone :)
Posts: 1,977
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Jan 16, 2014 20:37:52 GMT
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It is a weird one. Combined road tax/fuel duty to me is a no brainer... I'm rubbish at maths hence the convoluted workout below but if my maths are correct it should work out something like this:
Average road fund licence (annually): £240
Average miles: 12,000
Average mpg: 8l/60 miles
Average cost of fuel: £1.37 per litre
So to calculate yearly spend:
12,000 / 60 = 200 1.37 x 8 = 10.96 (ie £10.96 to do 60 miles) 200 x £10.96 = total yearly fuel spend of £2192
Add annual road tax cost £240 gives us £2432
200x12.16 = 2432 (12.16 was a figure I worked out the long way by trial and error so can't show how I came to it because I'm basically too stupid to work it out, but I think it's right)
12.16 / 8 = £1.52 per litre roughly with tax included
I think I can live with that if I've not got the hassle of road tax and the associated burdens.
Now someone please show me a much easier way to calculate the extra cost!!!
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"Back off man, I'm a Scientist" - Dr. Peter Venkman
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Jan 16, 2014 20:56:01 GMT
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I don't know if I'm missing something, but the nice Gov.UK document linked earlier doesn't seem to mention anything about non-transferrable tax - ... nor does google? Direct debit is no concern of mine, and paperless tax presumably means I can display period correct tax disks all the time? As with the new 'continuous' SORN, tracking everyones tax all the time would probably cost more in admin than it makes in fines, so hardly worthwhile?
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"A Pierburg carb? It would be more economical to replace it with a funnel..."
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philsford
Part of things
Posts: 733
Club RR Member Number: 100
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Jan 16, 2014 22:01:24 GMT
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It is a weird one. Combined road tax/fuel duty to me is a no brainer... I'm rubbish at maths hence the convoluted workout below but if my maths are correct it should work out something like this: Average road fund licence (annually): £240 Average miles: 12,000 Average mpg: 8l/60 miles Average cost of fuel: £1.37 per litre So to calculate yearly spend: 12,000 / 60 = 200 1.37 x 8 = 10.96 (ie £10.96 to do 60 miles) 200 x £10.96 = total yearly fuel spend of £2192 Add annual road tax cost £240 gives us £2432 200x12.16 = 2432 (12.16 was a figure I worked out the long way by trial and error so can't show how I came to it because I'm basically too stupid to work it out, but I think it's right) 12.16 / 8 = £1.52 per litre roughly with tax included I think I can live with that if I've not got the hassle of road tax and the associated burdens. Now someone please show me a much easier way to calculate the extra cost!!! I do a fair few miles more than 12,000 miles a year so hope this system doesn't get used. I would have thought the govenment have thought about this long and hard which has probably cost millions in wages to goons in suits who have no common sense but have to come up with these new systems to justify there exsistance but the main aim is going to be getting more money out of the working bloke.
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I think the multi-trip to purchase thing is over-exaggerated.
I can't see it being a problem, as said above current owner won't cancel tax until it's been driven away so the cameras won't generate a fine until a day or so later by which time new buyer can book insurance, and pop online and enter the vin or whatever and tax it there and then.
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I think the multi-trip to purchase thing is over-exaggerated.
I can't see it being a problem, as said above current owner won't cancel tax until it's been driven away so the cameras won't generate a fine until a day or so later by which time new buyer can book insurance, and pop online and enter the vin or whatever and tax it there and then.
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Jan 17, 2014 12:44:57 GMT
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I emailed the DVLA about the purchasing thing and they have replied as follows:
Dear Mr Hilton
Thank you for your email of 16 January to Jason Donovan at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA). I have been asked to reply.
I fully appreciate your comments relating to the processes when purchasing vehicles. Unfortunately, I am unable to answer your specific questions at this stage, as the change in law is currently being consulted on until 4 February. Please be assured that all comments to DVLA and HM Treasury are being considered to aid the design of the legislation.
In the meantime, I can only advise that under the proposal to abolish the paper tax disc, it is very much the intention that vehicle tax will end when a vehicle is sold. A new period of vehicle tax will be taken out by the new buyer of the vehicle. DVLA is still working through the practical detail on exactly how the process will work and consideration will also be given to how refunds of duty will be paid to customers.
As an aside, you may also be interested to know that insurance policies have not been checked when applications are made to tax GB vehicles since 16 December 2013. Whilst all drivers must be covered by valid motor insurance and MoT when they use a motor vehicle on the road or in any other public place, insurance checks are now done systematically as part of the Continuous Insurance Enforcement (CIE) process. Information is cross checked between the Motor Insurers Database (MID) and DVLA records.
The additional checks undertaken by DVLA online and in the Post Office when taxing a GB vehicle were not needed anymore. This change simplified the tax process for millions of motorists in GB and removes the problem you mention when taking out a new insurance policy on a vehicle.
I hope you find this information helpful.
The interesting points to me are:
1. You will be able to tax and insure online on the day if you go to look at a car because they don't check MID before you buy tax any more. 2. The detail of the rest has yet to be resolved so, if you have concerns respond to the consultation with them by 4 Feb.
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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Jan 17, 2014 12:49:39 GMT
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It is a weird one. Combined road tax/fuel duty to me is a no brainer... I'm rubbish at maths hence the convoluted workout below but if my maths are correct it should work out something like this: Average road fund licence (annually): £240 Average miles: 12,000 Average mpg: 8l/60 miles Average cost of fuel: £1.37 per litre So to calculate yearly spend: 12,000 / 60 = 200 1.37 x 8 = 10.96 (ie £10.96 to do 60 miles) 200 x £10.96 = total yearly fuel spend of £2192 Add annual road tax cost £240 gives us £2432 200x12.16 = 2432 (12.16 was a figure I worked out the long way by trial and error so can't show how I came to it because I'm basically too stupid to work it out, but I think it's right) 12.16 / 8 = £1.52 per litre roughly with tax included I think I can live with that if I've not got the hassle of road tax and the associated burdens. Now someone please show me a much easier way to calculate the extra cost!!! Not necessarily easier but more accurate: 1. Find what revenue Treasury gets per year from VED 2. Find out total clearances of road fuels per year from here: www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/Tax%20and%20Duty%20Bulletins/Oils1113.xlsDivide 1 by 2 and that gives you the increase per litre (at least in theory).
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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Jan 17, 2014 12:59:53 GMT
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Right, revenue from VED is £6 billion per year apparently. Clearances of road fuels in financial year 2012/13 were 44 billion litres.
6,000,000,000/44,000,000,000 = 13p per litre extra.
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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Jan 17, 2014 14:15:29 GMT
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Does Jason Donovan really work at DVLA now?!
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Jan 17, 2014 14:37:28 GMT
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Does Jason Donovan really work at DVLA now?! He was the contact name given in the consultation document but, rather disappointingly, the reply came from someone else.
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2014 14:38:48 GMT by keithyboy
Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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luckyseven
Posted a lot
Owning sneering dismissive pedantry since 1970
Posts: 3,839
Club RR Member Number: 45
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Jan 17, 2014 15:27:08 GMT
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This is all interesting discourse but ignores the fatal flaw in the centre of the issue; which is quite simply that the last thing the government want you to do is buy secondhand cars. They want you to go and buy brand new ones, thus giving them huge purchase tax bonanzas, a nice easily-regulated industry, plenty of fake stimulus to the economy which they can use to pretend it isn't still on it's knees coughing up blood, and they can wave their faux-green credentials at anyone who'll listen by pretending they give two ****s about the environment as they do their utmost to bamboozle you into buying some hateful hybrid POS (conveniently ignoring the horrendous cost of extracting rare minerals for its construction, the overall net environmental damage of taking largely inert and inoffensive elements safely locked away in non-reactive matrixes and releasing them in a form that can dissolve baby bunnies before your very eyes. Oh and of course that most hybrids are non-recyclable for these aforementioned toxins, but never let the facts stand in the way of a good multi-national lie). This government hates you and your secondhand cars. They despise you and the inconvenient way you make yourself harder to manage and control with your deviant re-using things willy-nilly. You deserve to pay for your transgressions in the most expensive tax trap possible. You've brought it on yourselves, thinking you're free to live the hobby life you want irrespective of how inconsiderately tricky it is to police Sorry for the negativity, but just because I'm paranoid and subversive doesn't mean they're not out to get me. Have a pic of Mavis, the Packard 42 litre PT-Boat-engined Bentley by way of apology. Wonder what tax bracket she'll fall into...
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Jan 17, 2014 16:45:11 GMT
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I wonder if this might be a good use of the government petition thing. Start a petition asking dvla to refund ved per day rather than per month. Flag it up on all of the car forums we are all on. Get eleventy million signatures and change the world.
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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ptr300
Part of things
Posts: 53
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Jan 17, 2014 16:57:07 GMT
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Good idea, are you creating it?
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Llewelyn_
Posted a lot
Hi everyone :)
Posts: 1,977
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Jan 17, 2014 17:45:12 GMT
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Right, revenue from VED is £6 billion per year apparently. Clearances of road fuels in financial year 2012/13 were 44 billion litres. 6,000,000,000/44,000,000,000 = 13p per litre extra. I was 2p out then! Pretty pleased with that!
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"Back off man, I'm a Scientist" - Dr. Peter Venkman
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berendd
Europe
why do I need 3 keys for one car?
Posts: 1,449
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Jan 17, 2014 22:23:32 GMT
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tax hasn't been transferrable over here for years, only difference, when you buy a car, you go to the post office and transfer the car onto your name before taking it home, making you the tax payer and insured driver.
not a problem, just a different way of handling stuff...
big drawback of this system is that post offices are not allways open, and sometimes you will have to drive a few miles to reach one.
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Jan 17, 2014 23:50:22 GMT
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A lot stuff I wouldn't disagree with. ....but, everyone single one of those second hand car buyers is also a voter and before too much longer the current administration are going to really need us. We talk of stealth taxes and whatnot but the amount of money involved in these changes is really tiny. Millions are a lot to us but in terms of Government budgets, it's not even a drop in the ocean. I used to work in a Government department doing policy development work including consultations on things so I understand how the process works. If nobody highlights the flaws to them, they won't do anything about it.
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Jaguar S-Type 3.0 SE
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....but, everyone single one of those second hand car buyers is also a voter and before too much longer the current administration are going to really need us. Errm, why? I'm not convinced *any* gov't (past or present) can even understand why folk want to use 'orrible old nasty cars when then can get a nice new one instead. And if they don't understand, there's no way they will care about the effect on buyers of 2nd hand cars. Nice pic of the Bentley BTW
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If nobody highlights the flaws to them, they won't do anything about it. Isn't that the idea of employing/voting in the ****heads in the first place. Not so that you have to go & do all the legwork/faultfinding for them ? Over here is obviously the same as Holland in that the road tax is payable by whoever was the registered keeper on January the 1st. If the vehicle is bought & sold once , twice, a dozen times during the year it ratains the same road tax until due the following January. I suppose there is no stealth money in that for the UK.
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Todos con Lorca
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Jan 18, 2014 13:37:35 GMT
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Hi
I don't want to stir anymore on this subject as some of the posts made me cringe. This isnt a loaded question but is the quoted £6 billion in 'profit' or revenue? I would imagine the dvla department costs a few quid in administration every year.
Alex
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Jan 18, 2014 15:50:53 GMT
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Just an aside....legally you cannot be fined for no tax if you have paid, you can only be fined for not displaying. So if you pay until the end of the month and sell in the middle of the month you are still taxed (you have paid) until the end. Obviously you need to send the disc back, so you no longer can display it, hence fine.
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I would be rich if i had not spent so much money on Cars and fast women...oh, i did waste some of it as well!
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