cjhillman
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1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,588
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Dec 21, 2013 21:13:29 GMT
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Not the old mk2 that we all love... but can anyone tell me how the Escort RS2000 mk5 4x4 works as a rear wheel drive car? I noticed that its engine is transverse and it appears to use the same shell as normal road car!? Also... was it any good? ![](http://www.performance-car-guide.co.uk/images/L-Ford-Escort-RS2000-4x4.jpg) ![](http://www.performance-car-guide.co.uk/images/L-Escort-RS2000-Racing-2.jpg) ![](http://fordrsitalia.altervista.org/immagini/RS%20stradali/EscortRS2000Mk5.jpg)
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Dec 21, 2013 21:32:53 GMT
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Not sure how it all works but I do no there a mint car.my brother had1 and it was really good.handled mint and went well too
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Dec 21, 2013 22:03:27 GMT
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From my understanding, these are basically FWD with some added assistance from the rear. The rear drivetrain is built to fit a more or less stock bodyshell, and it's far from up to the task of handling the power of being used RWD only.
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The 4wd system can only really be described on these at best as err pants really !!!!!! Rare car though now I imagine
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Believe the early evo gearbox and transfer boxes are similar and can be made to fit with a fair bit of modding
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sweep
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Posts: 411
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Dec 22, 2013 12:19:27 GMT
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There was a turbo one in PF mag a couple of years back still running the standard transmission, was knocking on the door of 300bhp IIRC. Good cars but transmission losses in standard form are horrific.
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bortaf
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Posts: 4,549
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Dec 22, 2013 14:07:55 GMT
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All the above, not very strong and pretty useless as RWD only, if they were any good i doubt ford would have botherd chopping a sierra floor pan to fit it into the escort for the cossie ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Google it, there lots out there inc the evo gearbox mod and why it was needed.
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R.I.P photobucket
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buzby
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Posts: 158
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Dec 22, 2013 17:40:16 GMT
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The 4x4 version of the MTX75 gearbox was restricted by the cost and packaging requirements that were placed on the original design - it had to fit in the existing FWD CE14 (Escort Mk5) floorpan with as little change as possible and reuse as much of the existing FWD MTX75 gearbox design as possible: ![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/escortrs2300/p14.jpg) To provide the rear drive, the front differential was replaced with a hollow housing attached to the final drive gear which terminates in a hollow shaft that feeds into a planetary-geared centre differential in the transfer box. The centre differential splits the torgue from the final drive, 40% going into the front diff output shaft (which is also hollow, and runs inside the final drive input shaft back into the front diff inside the final drive housing) and 60% to a geartrain, which converts the rear drive output to the correct ratio (to match the the front and rear axle speeds) and then rotates it 90 degrees via a pair of bevel gears to the output for the propshaft. The front diff ia a conventional geared type unit which is also viscously-coupled to the final drive housing to cope with any traction-induced speed differences between the front and rear axles. The RH front diff output then runs inside the hollow front diff input shaft (which is itself running inside the hollow final drive output shaft!) through the transfer case to connect to the RH front outer driveshaft. The rear diff is also a conventional geared type (a 6.5 inch Sierra unit), which together with new suspension arms and Fiesta Mk3 front hubs was mounted onto a cast alloy rear beam that required a different fuel tank, boot floor pressing and the use of a spacesaver spare wheel. Using this design met the objectives of having to minimise the modification of MTX75 gearbox and the CE14 floorpan as much as possible, but these restrictions also meant it was limited in terms of it's maximum power and torque handling (it was designed to handle an input torque of only 220Nm, and the RS2000 only produced 150BHP). The same system was also later developed for use in the Mondeo 4x4 (and Jaguar X-Type), but the transfer box was enlarged to allow larger, stronger gears to be used to allow a higher torque rating (280Nm), and the centre differential was modified to invert the torque split (60% front, 40% rear). As Bortaf has said, if you want to substantially increase the power in an RS2000 4x4, basically your only option is modifying a Mitsubishi Evo transmission (and the car to get it to fit). You can see in this picture the difference in the size of the centre diff and transfer case of the Evo transmission (on the left) compared to the MTX75 4x4 (on the right): ![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/escortrs2300/iansbits10.jpg) (there are also a couple of specialist suppliers who offer uprated internals for the standard transfer case to enable it to handle more torque) Trying to convert a car that uses the MTX75 4x4 system to RWD only is not really feasible, if you want it to last. The transfer box and rear drive train were only designed to reliably handle 60% of the power and torque of the original application, and even if the centre diff was locked and the front driveshafts removed the geartrain would still have almost the same transmission losses as the full 4x4 system (unlike the Ferguson Formula system used in the XR4x4 or RS Cosworth, were removing the front propshaft, diff and driveshafts eliminates a large percentage of the 4x4 transmssion loss). Both Gordon Spooner Engineering and Andy Rouse experimented unsuccessfully with converting this system to RWD as part of the development of the RS2000 Formula 2 rally car and the Mondeo touring car, before reverting to the conventional FWD versions.
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Last Edit: Dec 22, 2013 17:54:06 GMT by buzby
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Cracking explanation buzby, reading the original post got me googling yesterday and I sat there for ages puzzling over that diagram, trying to work it out.
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1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary.
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fuel
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Turbo-Jet
Posts: 352
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Dec 23, 2013 11:00:35 GMT
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There was a turbo one in PF mag a couple of years back still running the standard transmission, was knocking on the door of 300bhp IIRC. Good cars but transmission losses in standard form are horrific. Would have to be Evo4+, the earlier Evo1-3 had the engine and transmission orientation reversed from the Escort and Evo4 onwards. The Evo1-3 boxes had the center diff housed inside the transmission while on the 4+ it was externally placed.
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![](http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/te71se/g1.jpg) ![](http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/te71se/g2.jpg) VR-4 :: GSR
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Dec 23, 2013 12:38:31 GMT
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*didn't know they existed* ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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mk14dr
Yorkshire and The Humber
Posts: 4,472
Club RR Member Number: 85
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Ford Escort RS2000... 4x4 mk5 mk14dr
@mk14dr
Club Retro Rides Member 85
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Dec 23, 2013 13:03:15 GMT
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A mate of mine used to own one years ago. It went alright, if not exactly quick, but it went around corners very competently. Quite a surprising car in that respect.
Rare too, wasn't there something like only 500 made?
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Last Edit: Dec 23, 2013 13:03:39 GMT by mk14dr
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Dec 24, 2013 11:05:13 GMT
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i cant say much on the mk5 4x4 rs2000's but i can say the 2wd xr3i's go like sh*t of a shovel! n only have around 20bhp less iirc!
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Dec 24, 2013 11:34:20 GMT
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The full service manual with diagrams like the one above can be found here: www.ossbegge.com/Dealer_Manual_4x4.pdfI've often wondered about the possibility of using the MTX75 4x4 box from the Jag X-Type in an Escort or Focus, given the box itself is the 'same'.
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I've got Rovers.
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fuel
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Turbo-Jet
Posts: 352
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Dec 24, 2013 12:00:07 GMT
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yeah seems like a more logical choice, supposedly the transfer case and center diff is uprated to deal with more power but the torque split changes to 60% front bias instead of 60% rear bias like the original Escort MTX75 box.
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![](http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/te71se/g1.jpg) ![](http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/te71se/g2.jpg) VR-4 :: GSR
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sweep
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Posts: 411
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Dec 24, 2013 14:56:37 GMT
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There was a turbo one in PF mag a couple of years back still running the standard transmission, was knocking on the door of 300bhp IIRC. Good cars but transmission losses in standard form are horrific. Would have to be Evo4+, the earlier Evo1-3 had the engine and transmission orientation reversed from the Escort and Evo4 onwards. The Evo1-3 boxes had the center diff housed inside the transmission while on the 4+ it was externally placed. There was nothing said about Evo gear, just standard Ford stuff. I'd imagine it was on borrowed time!
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buzby
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Posts: 158
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Dec 24, 2013 15:18:33 GMT
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The full service manual with diagrams like the one above can be found here: www.ossbegge.com/Dealer_Manual_4x4.pdfI've often wondered about the possibility of using the MTX75 4x4 box from the Jag X-Type in an Escort or Focus, given the box itself is the 'same'. The Escort and Mondeo/X-Type systems aren't really the same though - although they are of the same design, the only component that's the same between the 2 systems is the MTX75 gearbox (and even that probably has different ratios) and the rear diff (for the Mondeo - the X-Type uses a larger rear diff as the torque split in the centre diff was changed back to 40% front, 60% rear). Here's a diagram of the Mondeo system: ![](http://www.awdwiki.com/images/ford-mondeo_x.jpg) If you compare it with the diagram of the Escort system in my post above you can see the transfer case is very different, and much wider than the Escort version. To allow a larger, stronger centre diff to be used, the transfer case is much wider. This results in a much wider spacing between the front driveshaft outputs in the Mondeo system, which if you could get it to fit in an Escort would mean having short front driveshafts (which are far from ideal if you want the CV joints to last). The rear suspension designs are completely different between the two systems as well - the Mondeo and X-Type 4x4 floorpan used modified pressings from the estate version at the rear, as the Mondeo estate rear suspension was used as the basis for the rear axle in an effort to reduce the intrusion into the boot floor. If you were looking at converting a Mk5/6 Escort to 4x4 and you were lucky enough to have all the mechanical parts (and fuel tank) from an RS2000 4x4, there are enough detail differences in the floorpan from the FWD version to make it hard work (different boot floor pressing and the chassis legs are also slightly different, and due to the low number made new panels have been NLA from Ford for years). If you wanted to use the Mondeo/X-Type system you would be looking at having to engineer the rear suspension from scratch around the rear diff (unless you could get hold of a complete RS2000 4x4 rear subframe), and modify the front bulkhead and floor to fit the bigger transfer case, a custom propshaft and driveshafts on all 4 corners. If you wanted to convert a Focus, then you would have to do a lot more fabrication, as the floorpan is completely different from the Escort (particularly around the rear suspension, which is similar in design to that used on the Mondeo estate). After all that effort you would still be left with a transmission that can probably reliably cope with 'only' 250bhp/280Nm, and the bodyshell changes would probably also require an IVA test. For all the fabrication and hassle involved you may as well have go the extra yard and use the 'bulletproof' Mitsubishi Evo transmission, or cut the floorpan out completely and stitch in one from a Sierra 4x4 (which is exactly what Ford ended up doing themselves for the Escort Cosworth and it's Mk4 Escort-based prototype).
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Last Edit: Dec 24, 2013 15:33:07 GMT by buzby
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fuel
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Turbo-Jet
Posts: 352
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Dec 24, 2013 19:24:39 GMT
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Would have to be Evo4+, the earlier Evo1-3 had the engine and transmission orientation reversed from the Escort and Evo4 onwards. The Evo1-3 boxes had the center diff housed inside the transmission while on the 4+ it was externally placed. There was nothing said about Evo gear, just standard Ford stuff. I'd imagine it was on borrowed time! Sorry was meant to quote the post above yours.. damn confusing quote button placement hah
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![](http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/te71se/g1.jpg) ![](http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/te71se/g2.jpg) VR-4 :: GSR
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