MrOtter
West Midlands
"Your car is your story, so don't let someone else write the book." - Moog
Posts: 281
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Nov 11, 2013 20:18:03 GMT
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Hi folks,
Tearing my hair out over this one, so hoping someone can give me some useful advice on here. The car is a 1993 Citroen BX with the naturally aspirated 1.9 XUD diesel engine, with the Bosch fuel pump.
I'll start off by saying that the car starts first time on the button and idles perfectly at around 1100rpm. Around 5-10 minutes after I start driving I'll be going along and I notice the car start feeling a bit lumpy, with a slight power loss and hesitation when I want to accelerate, and it will also idle slightly lumpy at about 900rpm (as opposed to 1100 normally). After 3,4,5 minutes of this, it'll eventually cut out on me, but only whenever I'm changing down gears or going in to neutral when approaching a junction/roundabout/stop in traffic. After it dies, it takes about 5-10 seconds of cranking (during which it's coughing and dying as soon as it fires, etc.) until it starts up again and all is well, idling at 1100rpm and with full power again. This might sound trivial at first, but it will always seem to cut out on me in dangerous places, like at a roundabout, junction, or during a traffic queue in a contraflow on the motorway (that was embarrassing...), or at some traffic lights. This problem then goes in a cycle - the car will be fine for another random period of time (usually between 20-40 minutes) and then I go through the lumpy running-stall-almost cause a crash-cranking-start-perfect again.
Now it's either coincidence or something to do with the following factors - it only started doing this after I did an oil/filter change and a fuel filter change. Also, about 100 miles before the filter change, I'd started using biodiesel. In those 100 miles the car ran perfectly but struggled to start, presumably due to a gummed up fuel filter - after the fuel filter change the car starts first time every time, but now has this really annoying stalling problem. I've done about 400 miles since the fuel filter change and the symptoms have stayed the same.
Does anyone reckon it could be the bio and I was just lucky not to notice the problem in the first 100 miles? Maybe the replacement fuel filter is bad? Maybe it's a coincidence and something unrelated is going funny?
I seriously can't drive the car like this for much longer, it's like russian roulette, I know it's going to cut out on me at some point, I know it'll die when I'm coasting up to a junction or a roundabout, but I don't know when. I'm driving constantly on edge and am stressed the entire journey just watching the tacho waiting to see the revs drop to 0 and hoping I can pull off to the side whilst I spend 10 seconds cranking the engine over to start the thing again...
Sorry for the wall of text...
Any ideas before I drive the thing off a cliff?
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,302 
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Nov 11, 2013 22:32:59 GMT
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First up the idle is too high at 1100, I'd get some strong diesel injector cleaner. I had similar issues with mine albeit a Lucas pump model and some Forté diesel injector cleaner fixed it within a few miles. I can't call that coincidence. It's definitely an odd issue your having! I'd offer you a loan of injectors to fault find but my spares are rotodiesel not Lucas and I don't know if they would work correctly. Go back to diesel, with a fresh filter and try like I said some injector cleaner.
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Nov 11, 2013 22:39:23 GMT
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I'd be looking for a leak.
does it have the silly remote fuel filter that is prone to leaking or the one on top of the thermostat housing?
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,302
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Nov 11, 2013 22:40:22 GMT
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I'd be looking for a leak. does it have the silly remote fuel filter that is prone to leaking or the one on top of the thermostat housing? Being NA Bosch it will have the the remote filter canister and primer thinking about it, those primers are prone to letting air in IIRC.. |
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rob963
Part of things
Posts: 37
Club RR Member Number: 97
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Nov 12, 2013 11:20:25 GMT
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I'd be looking for a leak. does it have the silly remote fuel filter that is prone to leaking or the one on top of the thermostat housing? Being NA Bosch it will have the the remote filter canister and primer thinking about it, those primers are prone to letting air in IIRC.. from memory when we changed the filter, it wasn't the remote type, it was in the same place as mine (lucas pump) if that makes any difference... |
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,302
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Nov 12, 2013 13:22:47 GMT
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Being NA Bosch it will have the the remote filter canister and primer thinking about it, those primers are prone to letting air in IIRC.. from memory when we changed the filter, it wasn't the remote type, it was in the same place as mine (lucas pump) if that makes any difference... Ok, so in that case there is a bulb primer on the os inner wing. That could be causing flow issues. Could be a blocked pipe or a sticking injector. Can't see how a pump issue would come and go but I'd start with the easy and obvious. Also make sure the 12v feed for the stop solenoid isn't failing. |
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MrOtter
West Midlands
"Your car is your story, so don't let someone else write the book." - Moog
Posts: 281
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Nov 20, 2013 14:38:50 GMT
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Thanks for the suggestions guys.
Firstly I tired changing the fuel filter again, that seemed to make no difference. Then,from a suggestion on a BX forum, I checked the in-tank gauze filter but that was absolutely spotless, not a hint of any dirt/sludge on it. So, the fuel system "seems" to be okay gunk/dirt wise, but I have discovered something. Whenever the car starts to play up (idle dropping/misfiring) if I pull over straight away and shut the engine off, then get under the bonnet and press the primer bulb on the fuel line 10-15 times it seems to then start up fine after a second or two of cranking, with the bulb getting harder as I pump it.
If I'm not mistaken, this means I have an air leak in to the fuel lines somewhere? A very intermittent/minor one obviously, as it's fine almost all of the time.
Anyone have any suggestions as to obvious/common points where air can get in to the system?
I'm going to try normal diesel again on the next tank, just in case, but I'm not confident that it's going to make a difference.
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Nov 20, 2013 15:45:23 GMT
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the leak off pipes can give an air leak, only place I've found so far that does the correct size replacement is a dealer, but they'll sell you a 1 metre length for not a massive amount.
Might actually have some spare here myself...
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,302
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Nov 20, 2013 16:16:00 GMT
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the leak off pipes can give an air leak, only place I've found so far that does the correct size replacement is a dealer, but they'll sell you a 1 metre length for not a massive amount. Might actually have some spare here myself... The halfords hose I used was a nice fit and is holding up fine. Hope you get to the bottom of it soon!  |
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Nov 20, 2013 17:30:57 GMT
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When you say you are running on Bio diesel do you mean proper processed veg oil into bio diesel or simply have been putting veg oil into the fuel tank ?
Paul H
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MrOtter
West Midlands
"Your car is your story, so don't let someone else write the book." - Moog
Posts: 281
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Nov 20, 2013 18:18:56 GMT
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When you say you are running on Bio diesel do you mean proper processed veg oil into bio diesel or simply have been putting veg oil into the fuel tank ? Paul H Proper stuff, from this place - www.bristolbiofuel.com/contact.html |
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Nov 20, 2013 23:04:25 GMT
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Is it possable to replace the pipe from the lifter pump to the main pump with some clear hose on your set up ?
As a first try i'd go for the lift pump diaphram (the bit you push to get the fuel up), clear pipe before and after the lift pump will give you some idea of where it's getting in, if it's an air issue, which TBH it does to me from what you say about re-priming and it starting ok.
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R.I.P photobucket
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Nov 22, 2013 19:44:34 GMT
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As above, fit in a small section of clear pipe just before the pump. I had a similar problem on one of mine, turned out the main (plastic!) fuel feed had a massive crack in it, which was letting in large amounts of air under load
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You're like a crazy backyard genius! |
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MrOtter
West Midlands
"Your car is your story, so don't let someone else write the book." - Moog
Posts: 281
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Nov 27, 2013 22:41:57 GMT
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Another update on this problem - basically it's still there and I'm very frustrated after today... It's gotten much more frequent over the past week, so I can't drive for more than about 5 minutes without having to pull over and turn the engine off. If I do that and let it settle for 10-20 seconds, then start it up again it'll be running fine. Sometimes the idle drops and it begins to stumble, but it never gets bad enough to stall and ends up going back to normal after a couple of minutes. Usually stalls though, and usually whilst I'm in heavy traffic... Anyway, today's progress: firstly I changed the leak off pipes, just in case, and because they're cheap and easy. The old pipes literally fell to pieces as I tried to pull them off the injectors, so I was hopeful that renewing them would solve the problem - but nope, not a single bit of difference. I then spent the rest of the day trying to find any air bubbles, putting bits of clear pipe in different places on the fuel lines in the engine bay: - Started off with some before and after the primer bulb/grenade. No bubbles at all, so everything backwards of the engine is fine, and the primer is fine. - Put some on the inlet of the fuel filter housing - no bubbles. So pipework to the filter is fine. - THEN! I put some on the outlet of the fuel filter housing - many bubbles! A big rush of them go through when I rev it, with the odd few going through whilst it's idling. So, as long as I'm thinking correctly, this means there's something up with filter housing... I took the lid off, checked inside, nothing obvious. The lid looked fine too, so I just made sure everything was spotlessly clean and put it back together. Obviously I paid attention most to making sure the plastic to plastic mating surfaces that seal the lid to the housing were clean, to make sure there was no air getting in between the filter lid and the housing. Of course this made no difference - quite a demoralising days work there. Please tell me there is a common issue with the filter housings?! Where can air be getting in - SOMEONE TELL ME! I've tried my hardest to find any fuel leaks around the housing, but I can't see any - I'll have a closer inspection tomorrow when it's light again. Any ideas very welcome! Just to clarify what filter setup I've got, here's a picture of the engine bay:  |
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MrOtter
West Midlands
"Your car is your story, so don't let someone else write the book." - Moog
Posts: 281
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Nov 27, 2013 23:52:37 GMT
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I've had a couple more suggestions from the BXClub forum on things to look at - will let you guys know how I get on when I get a chance to check them over!
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If you're not seeing fuel leaks/stains but do have bubbles in the line than it must be in the "suction" part of the system, in other words before any pump. Also since you identified (proper job I must say!) the problem to be in the filter housing, I would guess an air leak in the upper part of the housing since it doesn't leak when parked.
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,302
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Did you replace the O ring in the lid? Is it sat correctly? I'd be getting a new o ring and trying that. If that fails try bypassing the filter temporarily to see if it still stalls out. It's not an uncommon filter housing should you need to replace it, they used it on the DW8 as well IIRC, so plenty in scrappers.
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MrOtter
West Midlands
"Your car is your story, so don't let someone else write the book." - Moog
Posts: 281
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Nov 28, 2013 11:32:13 GMT
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Rich, when you say o-ring on the lid, do you mean the ring that slips over the top edge/flange of the fuel filter itself?
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,302
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Nov 28, 2013 11:49:14 GMT
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Not the filter itself, the removable o ring on the top plate. Just get another o ring an try that. Sounds like it's sucking in air through the o ring.
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Nov 28, 2013 13:07:37 GMT
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the primer bulbs can also suck in on themselves under load and stop fuel coming thru when they have gotten old, it maybe also work a try bypassing it.
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Last Edit: Nov 28, 2013 13:08:04 GMT by damageandy
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