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Sept 13, 2013 13:06:42 GMT
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I've said "Another Towing Question" because I was sure there had been threads about this but the search brought up very little.
I'm wondering about using my W124 to tow another W124 (broken down) with a towing rod or maybe an a-frame dolly thing (which I would have to buy). The towed car has electrics (lights), tax and MOT but will probably not run so will have no servo assistance for the brakes and whatnot. A W124 is about 1700Kg. The trip is not exactly local, about 40 miles. The 'driver' in the tow car knows can be trusted to know what he's doing.
Good plan or bad plan or totally illegal plan or something else?
I'm leaning toward paying someone to collect it on a truck but wanted some idea of whether or not it was something I could do with a hand from some pals and no specialist gear.
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Sept 13, 2013 16:52:46 GMT
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A-frame = illegal.
Dolly = illegal.
Tow rope = legal but not recommended. Not on motorways.
Breakdown bar = legal. But not on motorways
The law is often an ass.
I would feel much safer using an A-frame than a straight bar for that length of journey (and thats exactly what I do, legalities be damned)
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1986 Panda 4x4.
1990 Metro Sport.
1999 Ford Escort estate.
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Sept 13, 2013 22:11:06 GMT
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You can still use an A frame for recovery i believe providing the car is street legal but broken down, same with a straight bar, legal only for recovery not transport.
Recovery equipment does not have to meet construction and use regs, it just has to be "fit for purpose" which is recovering broken down vehicles not transporting them.
For transporting driverless cars your pretty much restricted to trucks and trailers if you want to stay legal, i have a farmer locally who rents me a plant trailer for 50 for the day if he's not using it so no longer bother with dodgy half baked half legal ideas, cant afford to get my license stuffed up.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Sept 14, 2013 7:34:53 GMT
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Strictly speaking, A frames, dolly's etc are for "recovery to a place of safety", not for a 40 mile trip.
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1986 Panda 4x4.
1990 Metro Sport.
1999 Ford Escort estate.
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Sept 14, 2013 19:45:02 GMT
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Is the car to be towed an auto? I seem to remember some autos don't like being towed  |
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Sept 14, 2013 20:27:41 GMT
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Is the car to be towed an auto? I seem to remember some autos don't like being towed We have a winner. The owner's manual says not to tow it for long because it's an auto. There's a decent guide on one of the US Benz forums for disconnecting shaft but, based on the wise words above, I'm getting it delivered. A cheap car isn't much of a bargain if I end up in the shizzy-shizz or find myself explaining the logic behind my half-legal towing to a Policeman late one evening. |
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Sept 15, 2013 21:49:35 GMT
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Some autos can be towed under a certain speed, some can be towed for a short distance and some cant be towed at all, depends on how the gearbox is designed so as above be guided by the handbook.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Sept 18, 2013 21:15:06 GMT
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A-frame = illegal. Dolly = illegal. Tow rope = legal but not recommended. Not on motorways. Breakdown bar = legal. But not on motorways The law is often an ass. I would feel much safer using an A-frame than a straight bar for that length of journey (and thats exactly what I do, legalities be damned) AFrames are legal but the towed car has to be legal and weigh less than 750KG unless it has an braking systems activated by the Aframe as you will find with cars being towed behind motorhomes . If a dolly is illegal how do the AA and RAC and other recovery firms get away with it, and yes they do tow longer distance's with them, same rules as Aframes. Aframe and Dollys are classed as trailers. Tow rope, only legal to get a car to the NEAREST place of safety. Straight bar, perfectly legal and can be used on Mways but only to a place of safety. . FWIW I have towed cars with an Aframe many times and the only time I got stopped was when I forgot to put my car plate over the towed car reg plate and set off an ANPR camera as not taxed or insured. traffic cop (who I knew) just told me to cover the towed car reg plate and display my plate. No mention of car not being road legal or the weight but thee are some jobworth traffic cops out there (espeically in Dorset) |
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Sept 19, 2013 10:25:44 GMT
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A frames are NOT legal even with braking systems on them, aside from all the other legal "grey" areas including uneven braking on the front and rear axle and A frames with brake set ups not being type approved for use with each and every cars barking system, if the car you are towing has servo assisted brakes then without the engine running it wont meet the trailer brake efficiency rules unless your A frame can power the cars brake servo and even then a court may say the system is not working "properly" which is a required part of the trailer braking rules.
Traffic cops almost always have a very sketchy knowledge of trailer law, if VOSA stop you they will stop you towing the vehicle at the very least. FWIW I have exceeded the speed limit many time and never been stopped for it, it does not make it legal.
IF you got taken to court the prosecution would make mincemeat of you in minutes if you started trying to say a towed car was a trailer unless you had done a LOT of work to make the car comply with the rules.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Sept 19, 2013 16:04:52 GMT
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A-frame = illegal. Dolly = illegal. Tow rope = legal but not recommended. Not on motorways. Breakdown bar = legal. But not on motorways The law is often an ass. I would feel much safer using an A-frame than a straight bar for that length of journey (and thats exactly what I do, legalities be damned) AFrames are legal but the towed car has to be legal and weigh less than 750KG unless it has an braking systems activated by the Aframe as you will find with cars being towed behind motorhomes . If a dolly is illegal how do the AA and RAC and other recovery firms get away with it, and yes they do tow longer distance's with them, same rules as Aframes. Aframe and Dollys are classed as trailers. Tow rope, only legal to get a car to the NEAREST place of safety. Straight bar, perfectly legal and can be used on Mways but only to a place of safety. . FWIW I have towed cars with an Aframe many times and the only time I got stopped was when I forgot to put my car plate over the towed car reg plate and set off an ANPR camera as not taxed or insured. traffic cop (who I knew) just told me to cover the towed car reg plate and display my plate. No mention of car not being road legal or the weight but thee are some jobworth traffic cops out there (espeically in Dorset) Nup. A-frames and dollys are not legal. Full stop. I will put a disclaimer on that and say they are not legal for TRANSPORTING a car. They CAN be used to shift a broken down car to a place of safety, which is how breakdown companies are allowed to use them. Beyond that, there is no grey area at all, its very, very black and white - illegal. They are not classed as trailers, as Popuptoaster very rightly states. To be a legal trailer, the towed car would have to weight less than 750kgs. Careful though - thats not 750kgs actual weight, but 750kgs plated maximum GROSS vehicle weight. Aside from some wee Aixom microcars and perhaps some kit cars, nothing on the road will qualify. |
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1986 Panda 4x4.
1990 Metro Sport.
1999 Ford Escort estate.
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Sept 19, 2013 18:12:52 GMT
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From the DoT...................
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).
VOSA say........
If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.
If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer.
In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply.
So that's VOSA and DoT, that's the people who make the rules both stating that AFrames and Dollys are classed as trailers and that Trailer rules apply.
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Last Edit: Sept 19, 2013 18:15:28 GMT by Deleted
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Sept 19, 2013 18:20:22 GMT
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Sept 19, 2013 18:21:36 GMT
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So every camper van towing stupid little cars are illegal, as they aren't "recovering them" ?
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Toyota mk3 supra. retro goodness.
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Sept 19, 2013 18:38:03 GMT
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So every camper van towing stupid little cars are illegal, as they aren't "recovering them" ? No because they are classed as a trailer. |
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Sept 19, 2013 22:54:04 GMT
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Yes illegal, just because they still get away with it does not mean it's legal.
I have seen and read that document, I see you didn't want to quote this part....
trailers are required to have even braking on all axles, cars do NOT have even braking on the front and rear, even those with 50/50 weight distribution have stronger braking on the front, this is illegal for multi axle trailers, if the car you are towing is fitted with a servo and you tow it with the engine off and don't provide an alternative power source for the brakes then they likely wont meet the braking efficiency levels either so again, illegal.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Sept 20, 2013 8:00:32 GMT
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From the DoT................... When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR). VOSA say........ If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer. If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer. In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply. So that's VOSA and DoT, that's the people who make the rules both stating that AFrames and Dollys are classed as trailers and that Trailer rules apply. Know when you are wrong. You quoted it yourself..... "As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers " Technical requirements for trailers....where do I start....well off the top of my head.... If the GROSS weight of the trailer is over 750kgs Over-run brakes on ALL wheels. If manufactured after 1989, a hydraulically damped coupling and over-run brakes with auto-reverse. A handbrake that works on ALL wheels, An emergency breakaway cable that activates the brakes if the trailer uncouples on the move - if the trailer is unbraked a secondary coupling (chain) that will keep the car and trailer connected. Brakes have to meet efficiency standards dictated by EEC Directive 71/320 - I cant remember offhand but its something like 50% efficiency on all wheels. Triangular rear reflectors, orange side marker lights/reflectors......the list is very, very long A car on an A-frame can not and will not ever comply with any of the above. Ever. As context, I have a genuine Solomatic a-frame with a braking device that fits to the towed cars driver seat and presses the brake pedal via a bowden cable. Its an ex RAC unit and is only legal for recovery to a place of safety. oh, and I do this for a living. |
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1986 Panda 4x4.
1990 Metro Sport.
1999 Ford Escort estate.
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Sept 20, 2013 21:36:49 GMT
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Okay I give up so all towing dollies and Aframes are illegal.
I guess I had better apply for a different job tomorrow.
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Last Edit: Sept 20, 2013 21:39:21 GMT by Deleted
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Sept 20, 2013 21:42:30 GMT
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Yes illegal, just because they still get away with it does not mean it's legal. I have seen and read that document, I see you didn't want to quote this part.... [. I posted a link to the entire document so no need to quote it all! Anyhow its no point arguing with someone who knows my job better than me just because he uses an Aframe so I won't make any more comment and leave it to the experts instead. |
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Sept 21, 2013 15:52:24 GMT
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You're not the only one who does/did recovery in this thread, when you drive past the VOSA station on the A13 at Dagenham everyday you soon learn whats legal and what is not, I have used all sorts of recovery equipment for work, up to and including 7.5 ton spec lifts and double deck car transporters.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Sept 21, 2013 18:37:11 GMT
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My last word on this.....
I am VOSA qualified as a roadside LPV inspector.
I drive past a chemist everyday but that doesn't make me a pharmaceutical expert!
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