|
|
|
|
|
I was reading the other day about how FWD Honda engines are used in Trials cars. The engine is turned 90 degrees and the diff welded up so the offside drive flange becomes drive to a rear axle. It's got me thinking. The Mini was revolutionary with the gearbox under the engine but is this layout still used by anybody ?  AFAIK most gearboxes are to one side or the other of the engine. My 1500 FWD Triumph was FWD with a north south engine and gearbox under the engine - (not sure if this is a 1300 or 1500)  Paul h |
| |
|
|
|
|
Kieran
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,092
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 10:21:33 GMT
|
|
I don't think any car manufacturers do this anymore.
Bike engines have been a unit construction for years now, sharing the engine oil, and running a wet multiplate clutch.
Also simple to adapt to use in a car, by mounting the engine inline and running the propshaft off the gearbox output shaft.
|
| |
The Ashby Jackson fleet:-
1979 Mini Clubman 1.8 K series
1978 Skoda 110r Project 130RS K-oupe
1978 Austin Allegro 1500 SDL Estate
1984 BMW K100 Sidecar outfit
1999 Yamaha FZS 1000 Fazer
1991 Kawasaki ZXR400 race bike
2002 Kawasaki ZX9r race bike
|
|
stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,954
Club RR Member Number: 174
|
Gearbox in "sump" engines ?stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
|
Jul 15, 2013 10:35:49 GMT
|
|
You'd have 2 diffs so would end up with a 15:1 final drive or something silly? or am I missing something?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 10:39:36 GMT
|
|
I was thinking along the lines of how the revolutionaly concept for the Mini's drivetrain has become obsolete. I suppose it's call "progress". There are numerous things which were once common place that are now almost forgotten. Starting handles, trafficators, having to lift bonnet and turn a tap to adjust heater output, drum front brakes, in fact brakes that have to be manually adjusted, sealed beam headlights, toggle switches, dynamos, bendix starters, points & condensor, toughened windscreens, chrome bumpers, metal / chrome hubcaps that attached to lugs on wheel, manual windscreen washer pumps, single speed wipers, seat belt buckle on strap rather than attached to seat or semi rigid stalk. What about the indicator switches in centre of steering wheel or middle of dash. Tool kits that came with a new car that were sufficent to do roadside repairs and basic maintenance. I must admit I don't miss grease nipples and having to crawl around suspension and such every few weeks. I collect motoring literature and that includes owners handbooks that came with a new car. The handbooks used to tell owners how to do basic things like servicing etc !
All things that people might find on retro cars. How many times have you given somebody new a lift and they are amazed at how basic even a 1980's car is compared to what they are used to today. What about the indicator switches in centre of steering wheel or middle of dash.
Paul h (reminiscing)
|
| |
|
|
sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
|
Gearbox in "sump" engines ?sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
|
Jul 15, 2013 10:45:43 GMT
|
|
I guess it's a problem that engines are so much larger now, mostly taller from the overhead valve stuff, and with larger and wider engine bays, it's just not necessary to develop a very compact engine-transmission unit like the A-series.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 16:27:22 GMT
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 17:27:39 GMT
|
On the 99 and old 900 the gearbox did not actually share it's oil with the engine, it was still separate even though the tranny casing formed part of the engine oil pan...I really don't think the box would of lasted long if it did :-) The early 99's used drop gears to transmit the power, (like a triumph 1300.) later ones used chain drive. Also saab were the first to do a modern transverse engine with end on box in 1949 - way before the mini, so whoever says issigonis was first is plain wrong. (OK it was 2 cylinder 2 stroke.) They reverted to a longitudinal layout with later 3 and 4 cylinder cars... |
| |
Last Edit: Jul 15, 2013 17:45:45 GMT by chrissyb
'98 e36 316i lux
'97 mx5 harvard
'87 Saab 900 T16s
|
|
Davenger
Club Retro Rides Member
It's only metal
Posts: 7,272
Club RR Member Number: 140
|
Gearbox in "sump" engines ?Davenger
@dminifreak
Club Retro Rides Member 140
|
Jul 15, 2013 17:45:08 GMT
|
|
How do Audi go about transfering drive these days?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 17:47:01 GMT
|
|
the audi setup had the box behind the engine. Not very good for weight distribution on FWD. Thats why all they do is understeer... Now they use transverse layout with transfer boxes for 4wd...
|
| |
Last Edit: Jul 15, 2013 17:53:17 GMT by chrissyb
'98 e36 316i lux
'97 mx5 harvard
'87 Saab 900 T16s
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 18:01:50 GMT
|
Lamborghini did it with a V12   They made it a split-sump later as did Saab from the beginning, as far as I know. Which does make sense, IMO. |
| |
|
|
mikeymk
Part of things
'85 Polo Coupe S 1.6 16v
Posts: 931
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 22:01:59 GMT
|
|
Engines used to run oil in the region of 20w-60w when this practice was in effect.
These days most modern engines are designed for 0w-30w oil, and with the weight and torque of todays cars, i can see this being a bit of a problem for a helical gearbox to cope with at the level of mileage expected these days.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2013 23:19:36 GMT
|
|
Fairly sure the old w124 mercedes 4-matic models ran the front diff in the engine sump.
|
| |
1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I thought the last engine to be in-sump was the BL O Series as used in Princess, Ambassador, Sherpa, Marina, and Montego, ending production some time in the mid 90s. The in-sump set up seems to be restrictive both in terms of gearing and in terms of the overall height of the engine with manufacturers turning to more conventional layouts with separate gearboxes
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fairly sure the old w124 mercedes 4-matic models ran the front diff in the engine sump. Not as a shared sump, though...  |
| |
|
|
sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
|
Gearbox in "sump" engines ?sowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
|
|
|
I thought the last engine to be in-sump was the BL O Series as used in Princess, Ambassador, Sherpa, Marina, and Montego, ending production some time in the mid 90s. The in-sump set up seems to be restrictive both in terms of gearing and in terms of the overall height of the engine with manufacturers turning to more conventional layouts with separate gearboxes Sherpa and Marina were rwd, and the Maestro and Montego had seperate gearboxes on the end |
| |
|
|
jonw
Part of things
Can open a Mouse with a File
Posts: 768
|
|
|
|
|
The mini setup was set by a lack of time and space, not by choice. It was viewed at the time as a bit of a bodge but was the best that could be done to get the A35 box into the mini without resorting to a two cylinder engine.
The design cause many early problems with oil pickup and syncro wear. It also nessitated a lot of different diff ratio options to be made. This was later cured but many of the mini replacement concepts used a conventional FWD gearbox setup.
The other issue was the need to change 5.2 litres of oil every time...
I believe that Peugeot made a few engines with shared oil (like a motorcycle) but no box in sump.
|
| |
Suzuki SV650R The good
Triumph T20 The Bad
BMW G650GS The Ugly
Matchless G12CSR The Smokey
Toyota Hybrid One pint or Two?
Ingredients of this post
Spam
Drunken Rambling of author
Bad spelling
Drunken ramblings of inner voices
Occasional pointless comments
Vile beef trimming they won't even use in stock cubes
|
|
faker
Part of things
novanut
Posts: 272
|
|
Jul 16, 2013 10:31:53 GMT
|
|
Peugeot, Citroen, Talbot and Simca all used the gearbox in sump with shared oil set up.
|
| |
|
|
79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,617
|
|
Jul 16, 2013 12:51:54 GMT
|
|
Honda's earliest Babies, the N360/600, & Z'coupe' also had the unitized engine/transaxle 1968-72 with their motorcycle inspired transverse air-cooled engines & differential incorporated.. Replaced by the Life & revised 'new'-Z in '72 with the modern FWD 'end mounted' transaxle they managed to shorten the front overhang a further 80mm whilst also cramming in a radiator for the new engine!
Believe Fiat/Autobianchi Primula was one of the first to adopt the 'modern' transverse engine-box Fwd layout though in '64.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2020 14:27:48 GMT
|
|
Tatra T-613 has differential in engine oil sump.
|
| |
Normal service has been resumed as soon as possible.
|
|
|
|
