goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Arezzo, not sure where you were going with that quote? Hopefully my modifications will be in keeping with the character of the car and it's personality. I've just been enjoying driving it more and more recently. It feels like I made the right choice to stick with it, I guess I had to go on the journey of resigning myself to sell it before I could see that it was thew wrong thing to do. The pea shooters staying It's already larger bore than stock, up from 1.5" to 2", and mixture of exhaust volume and tone is the best I've ever had in a daily driven car. Window up, I don't really notice the exhaust, hacking along the motorway it's not droning. But then wind the window down and I can hear it popping and crackling and burbling behind me just beautifully. The wheels are hopefully arriving tomorrow, so will get some pictures, but they shan't be fitted for a while yet as I'll need to sort the PCD issues etc. Front spring rollers are in production, watch this space! I don't think I'm working tomorrow, so might be able to spend some time on it. Interesting you mention flipping leaves, I'd been looking for some spare rear springs to have recambered but I keep hearing mentions of flipped leaves and how the works rally cars used them. I figure if it's good enough for the rally cars it's good enough for me! And as it's just reassembling the spring in a different way it's easy enough to put it back if it doesn't work right. Zircon, if it was a bit older it would be worth more, the series 3 cars are the least desirable for now. There are plenty out there priced as you expected, and plenty of ratty but road worth ones, like mine was, for about half the price of that white one. Interesting though about the rear bumper. I shall have to look at some more pictures!
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Last Edit: Jul 2, 2013 20:09:28 GMT by goldnrust
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Well I was starting to plan lowering the suspension, but my hand was forced.... As Fulvia75 mentioned, one of the common ways to get low at the front is to remove the 75+mm tall rubber bush that sits between the front spring and wishbones and replace it with a roller, similar to that which the HF cars used. I wanted to make my own rollers, so the first job was to get one of the rubber bushes out and measure up the mountings etc. This was my big mistake! 3 of the 4 studs sheared when I tried to undo them. There was no going back now. It wasn't just plan the rollers, it was make the rollers. I cut up some 4mm wall box section to leave me with a U shape then welded a brace across the front of it to help with stability, here's a half way stage before I gave it some tidying up. Then gave it some a lick of paint and it was ready for the roller. All sorts of rollers have been used over the years, I realised I had some Rx7 4 link polybushes kicking about that would do the job just great, the m12 bolt though the middle would be full Lancia spec engineering overkill and the poly should help cushion the set-up so it's a little smoother and quieter than a metal roller that some cars use. I was pretty peased with the outcome, the only thing that's not so great is that I didn't have any m12x1.5 nuts about, so had to use some old steel wheelnuts for now. So with the front much lower, the rear now looked silly high! People have used various methods to lower the rear of Fulvias over the years, none of them besides getting new springs made from scratch seem perfect. So I figured I'd try out flipping one of the leaves. I've found various references to the works rally team in the 70s running with the 3rd leaf flipped, so if it's good enough for them..... The only problem is I couldn't find anywhere a clear description of which is the 3rd leaf... Does the main leaf count as leaf 1 or not. I figured it did, and got busy. Here's a before: And after: Quite a difference! And with the car bolted back together, I'm wondering if I should have flipped what in my counting system was the 4th leaf. Anyway heres the before ( forgot to take before pic of front so had to jack it up to where it sat!) And the after.... possibly too low at the rear? The chassis is level, but the arch gaps are smaller at the rear, I'd like them equal really or just a fraction nose down. This is when the problems really hit home. Firstly the right front has always sat ~2cm higher than the left front, I was hoping it was just bushes or something but with all the bushes reset with the weight of the car on them equally it's still 2cm out of level. Further investigation needed. I could see the rear was probably gonna scrub the arches but though it wouldn't hurt to go up the road once just to see how bad the scrub was. It seemed fine till I hit a speed bump, which was followed by a crunch, and most of the left rear arch being left on the floor I knew this arch had filler in like the front, but it wasn't cracked yet so it was on the long to do list.... Either way it doesn't scrub now, haha. I rolled the right rear as best I could but again was blighted by filler. So rear arches have jumped up the priority list almost to the top. There is one possible route that this car might take which will render any arch issues insignificant.... My new wheels came! Maserati bi-turbo wheels. I've gotta thank Clement for pointing them out, I'd never noticed them/heard of them before. But seeing them I instantly fell for them and loved how they reminded me of the Campagnolos (like the orange supercharges Zagato is wearing) They're gonna look gooooood! The issue is the the offset is 15mm lower than the Cromodora's that I'm, already struggling to fit in the arch. To add insult to injury the PCD 4x98, a long way from 4x130 for a Fulvia, and redrilling isn't an option so theres gonna need to be a 15mm spacer in there too. If I want to fit them the only option is Gr4 arches like on that blue Fulvia a few pages back or like this...... That's starting to get into quite un-reversable mods, so gonna sit and think on it for a bit
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Last Edit: Jul 4, 2013 20:55:03 GMT by goldnrust
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looking real smart, shame about the arch, those speedbumps are curse word. if it looks anything like the red one in the link youl be on to a winner!
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duncanmartin
Club Retro Rides Member
Out of retro ownership
Posts: 1,320
Club RR Member Number: 70
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It would look so cool with those arches. And the wheels are ace. 4x98 you say? I wonder if they would suit A Beta...
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Lowering looks spot on!
Wheels look clean, not sure if they are still cool with arches bolted-on. But prove me wrong.
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Click picture for more
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Looks great, but I agree with you in that it should be nose down, to add a bit more agression. Will suit the de-bumpered look very well. Wheels are cool, I have a friend with a fully polished set on a Fiat Seicento would skinny tyres on the maserati wheels be an option? Only thing is you wouldnt want to ruin the handling characteristics of the car...
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79cord
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Nice work upon the front rollers & revised height. Looks good, but as you say slightly nose down is always nice. Shame about rear arches & left right inequality fear. I'll admit the Biturbo wheels are nice, though don't excite me, but an inch bigger diameter or width would give a massive visual difference. I like the unusually tight, delicate original arch lip as well. You've now got me wondering how the original wheels would look with different paint &/or polished bits such as outer lip & inner recesses.
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This is when the problems really hit home. Firstly the right front has always sat ~2cm higher than the left front, I was hoping it was just bushes or something but with all the bushes reset with the weight of the car on them equally it's still 2cm out of level. Further investigation needed. I could see the rear was probably gonna scrub the arches but though it wouldn't hurt to go up the road once just to see how bad the scrub was. It seemed fine till I hit a speed bump, which was followed by a crunch, and most of the left rear arch being left on the floor Christ, my heart sank when i saw this! Poor little Lancia. The Grp4 arches look awesome.
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Koos
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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I just did a little dance in front of the computer.
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This is just the perfect thread. Anyone who uses a car like this daily is a proper car fan!
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Sorry to hear about that rear wheel arch!! :-(
But the ride hight looks really perfect now! Your roller is a really nice piece of work! What is the total hight of your roller assembly?
For the rear, I had read they put the 2 shortest leaves on top, but as long as it works with the 3rd as well... ;-)
The wheel "preview" looks absolutely stunning... I not quite sure about the GR 4 arches though, I think both flared and not flared it will look impressive..
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Last Edit: Jul 5, 2013 11:29:57 GMT by fulvia75
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Not usually a fan of modern wheels on vintage cars but the biturbo wheels are just the right mix of vintage and modern ( available at a reasonable price). They look great in the photoshop and will look even better with the arches
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1987 Alfa Milano/75 1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia 1976 Alfetta GT race car 1970 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Rallye S 1968 Fiat 850 spider
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This is going to look....AWESOME.
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Have you also already adjusted the brake pressure regulator for the lower rear ride height? The lever needs to be just touching the valve with empty boot + tank... Otherwise you might have an unpleasant surprise when braking hard..
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Last Edit: Jul 6, 2013 6:04:51 GMT by fulvia75
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Jul 11, 2013 21:34:14 GMT
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Cheers for all the comments guys. Like you say, nmretro, period correct wheels are normally the best but I think these biturbo wheels are still retro enough to work. Whether they'll ever make it on the car I don't know. I'm having enough issues at the moment getting the current Cromodoras not to scrub the arches, especially at the rear. Compared to the low profile tyres and coil sprung rear suspension systems I've been used to, the rear axel/tyre does move around a lot in the Lancia and it needs much more room in the arch to not make contact during cornering. The biturbo wheels are gonna sit +3cm outward of the current wheels with adapters, so I really don think that's gonna fit no matter how wild I get with the arch rolling. It's gonna need to be an over arches job, and I'm still torn as to how much I like that route. On some cars it looks great, and on others it doesn't. Anyway, bigger problems are afoot. Last week while happily enjoying a nice A road I heard a loud bang, it had a hint of metal shearing noise. I quickly pulled over and checked the suspension front and rear, but all looked ok. I put it down to hitting a big stone or something and it flying up and ricocheting off the bodywork. I thought nothing off it and the next day spent a couple of hours with a tape measure trying to work out why it wont sit level at the front. After much measuring I came to a few conclusions. Firstly, the car has been patched a number of times, in the sills, floor, arches and subframe. There's lots of things that are a couple of mill different from side to side. Nothing stand-out, and some things will cancel each other out, but it could account for a few mm of the approx 2cm out of level. Secondly, the front arches are different. Which will be my fault for simply copying the shape of the filler with metal. The one arch is 4cm from the arch lip to the line in the bodywork, the other arch is 5cm. Can any of you guys with Fulvias check this measurement against your own car? I'm tempted to go with 4cm either way, as the 4cm arch is the one I redid properly and was pleased with and the other arch is the one with more filler on it. I'm not too dispondent about the idea of chopping up the arches again. After the paint failure, and the rear arch disaster, and with me planning on keeping the car more long term now, I'll just work my way round all of the body work till I can do a full respray. Sorry I'm a bit low on pictures this post, I was grumpy with the car for not working, and just wanted to try and fix it! So it's looking like the car itself is only 1cm out of level. I figure I could put 3-4mm of spacers under one of my rollers and it would bring the chassis nearly into level and I could be done. Fulvia 75, my rollers work out at 40-45mm high. I'm not sure how much longer the polybushes are gonna last, they look pretty crushed! I'll just see how it goes, might be down to metal roller soon. With rollers that low I was only a few mm off the standard length bumpstops at the front. Interestingly, theres still loads of room to the rear bump stops, and it looks lower than the front currently! So while I was fitting the spacers to the left roller, I cut about 15mm off the bumpstops. They are huge things, 90mm long as standard! I shaped the ends to the same profile as stock so they should still be pretty progressive. And with the car on it's wheels the chassis was now much closer to level. Thinking of the changes ride height, I've not adjusted the rear brake bias thing yet, it's on the to do list. I've done a few hard stops, and the rear's not felt any more likely to lock than usual After a spirited drive to my friends house 25 miles away, I pulled up to find the front left corner looking worryingly low. It was sat on the bumpstop. So there's been a metal clonk noise I couldn't trace, the fronts not level and it's getting worse.......... my heart sank, front spring issue anyone? 3 bloody days. 3 days to remove the front spring. Arrrrggghhh! Looks simple enough till I encountered the m14, or whatever huge size they are, bolts that are ~300mm long that run through the upper wishbones. They really don't wanna come out. After much swearing I got the right one out, but the left one wasn't moving. I've got the nut off it ok, but I just can't slide the bolt out. It's had days of WD40, some heat ( couldn't give it too much as I don't wanna melt the bushes!) as much leverage as I can give it, I even made a makeshift slide hammer that was welded t the head of the bolt and ran out of the front bumper, but I just cant get it to slide out. This evening I realised, slightly red faced, that I could get the spring out with just the one upper wishbone removed. So i did, that other wishbone bolt can stay there, I just hope I don't have to replace the bushes soon as I think the bolt will have to be cut out Looking at how little parts are removed here, it looks simple doesn't it! And here's the offending spring..... It's in much better condition than the rear springs, very little rust, the interleaving was in reasonable condition. No leaves are broken, none misshapen, none have any signs of damage. The only thing i could see that could possible have caused it to sag on one side was that a CV joint had leaked some oil onto the left side at some stage, where the right side was dry. Anyway I figured I'd clean up all the leaves, so they'd all be the same slipperiness. And when I build the spring I shall alternate leaf directions, one original followed by one flipped left to right. So if they have just sagged on the drivers side with age, that sag should be spread across the whole spring evenly. Need to find some time ASAP to put the spring back in and see if it's made any difference. Also MOT is up early August so I've got my work cut out to get her sorted in time!
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... had a quick measurement on my car this morning before going to work, on my car it's ~ 4,75 cm to the edge of the line on both sides at the front and about 7 cm at the rear end. Unfortunately I cant tell if the arches are original or not..
Keeping my fingers crossed for you that the spring removal will solve the difference in height..
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Jul 12, 2013 18:44:15 GMT
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Has it at least stopped leaking oil? ;-)
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Koos
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Jul 12, 2013 19:28:13 GMT
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Cheers for measuring mate. My rears are 7cm ish both sides too. I've had another look at mine and I think the arch thats at near 5cm has got much more original inner arch and arch lip, so is probably the correct one. I still like the look of the 4cm arch more though, so dunno whether to go for 4cm all round or 5cm. Either way fixing my rear aches takes priority. Mark, shhhhhh. I think I've stopped most of them now aside from the gearbox input shaft. Got the seals so just finding a time to be arsed to take the engine out again. Front spring is back in, and has made no difference at all. Put it on its wheels on the drive, roll it back and forward, bounce it a bit and it's sitting 15-20mm off the bump stops, chassis is 1cm out of level. Drove 25 miles, pulled over and it's now almost sitting on the bump stop on drivers side and still 20mm off at passengers side, 3cm out of level. This is exactly the same as last time, but at least I've ruled spring sag/fractured leaf/rusted leaf out. The interesting thing was doing the 25 mile drive home with a passenger and now both sides are practically sat on bump stops and its back to just under 1cm out of level. So maybe it just takes longer for the spring to settle than I realised? I need to go for another solo drive now and see if the passengers sides comes back up, I also obviously need to raise my rollers! I'm not a fan of driving on the bump stops, even on super long progressive ones like the Fulvia has!
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Last Edit: Jul 12, 2013 19:31:40 GMT by goldnrust
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Jul 12, 2013 19:32:55 GMT
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sorry i only have more question rather than answers, but, its a transverse leaf spring right ? and the cotton real shaped bush originally bolted through the eye in the end of the longest leaf, then through a hole in the wishbone ? with the replacement roller, what stops the spring leaving contact with the roller? i guess what i'm asking is what stops the wishbone drooping/suspension drooping, is it the damper ?
the square hefty bracket that goes in the middle of the leaf pack, is that the only thing that prevents the spring pack see-sawing ? just wondering whether what ever its bolted to on the vehicle is sound and strong and not allowing one end to see saw higher and give you uneven ride height at the front ?
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Jul 12, 2013 19:44:28 GMT
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sorry I only have more question rather than answers, but, its a transverse leaf spring right ? Yesand the cotton real shaped bush originally bolted through the eye in the end of the longest leaf, then through a hole in the wishbone ? Yes, through two eyes on the two longest leaveswith the replacement roller, what stops the spring leaving contact with the roller? I guess what I'm asking is what stops the wishbone drooping/suspension drooping, is it the damper ? Yes the damper limits the suspension droop. the square hefty bracket that goes in the middle of the leaf pack, is that the only thing that prevents the spring pack see-sawing ? Correctjust wondering whether what ever its bolted to on the vehicle is sound and strong and not allowing one end to see saw higher and give you uneven ride height at the front ? It's a fair point. The leaf pack bolts to a main cross member, which seems well solid. When I put the leaf pack back I was careful to tighten the bracket evenly and to make sure it was plenty tight. Thinking aloud.... it looks like one damper has been changed at some stage, but the other one looks older. Dampers shouldn't affect ride height, but after going for the ride with passenger and it settling more I wonder if there's something odd going on there, especially as leaf springs have a small amount of natural dampening..... hmmmmm.
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Last Edit: Jul 12, 2013 19:46:42 GMT by goldnrust
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