pork
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Posts: 1,662
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Dec 12, 2012 18:28:50 GMT
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How would you get these to work together? Would the s/c blow into the turbo, then bypass it somehow once turbo is spooled up? How would you operate the bypass valve?
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Dec 12, 2012 20:07:13 GMT
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No reason why you couldn't have two intake loops. You wouldn't have to link them in series. You would want them to share the same intercooler but where each compressor sucks in from can be different places.
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pork
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Dec 12, 2012 20:14:21 GMT
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Wouldn't you use the s/c to help spool turbo faster?
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froggy
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Dec 12, 2012 20:20:46 GMT
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It can be made to work very well but from my experience you need a mass airflow based efi system to measure mass rather than boost pressure as you can make lots of pressure at fairly low mass and leaving the charger is series means adding heat to the charge once the turbo is fully spooled . If I had continued with my twin charged setup I would have added a bypass valve in the same way lancia did on the delta .
It only starts to make sense when trying to run 500+ hp on a 4cyl engine with a big turbo
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Dec 12, 2012 20:30:19 GMT
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Nowhere near that sort of power. More along the lines of micra st.
just wondered how it all works together
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Last Edit: Dec 12, 2012 20:30:40 GMT by pork
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Look at Skoda / Seat / VW TSi engines - they are turbo and supercharged.
Paul H
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
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Club RR Member Number: 24
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Super charger and turbosowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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The ones I've looked at have a large turbo feeding a smaller supercharger which then blows into the intake manifold. This gives instant boost at low revs from the supercharger then as the revs and load increases the turbo spools and gives more boost. The superchargers apparently work fine when supplied with pressurised air, except for the heat that get generated. I think they're as complicated as you want to make them, obviously for a petrol you would need an idle bypass valve which can be found on some factory supercharged petrol installations, but diesels seem to not need anything like that. I'm sure Claymore has or had this setup on his Volvo T5, and the Black Smoke Racing Mercedes drift wagon was I think also compound charged with an Eaton M112 and Holset HX50 or HX55, or one of it's evolutions at least I'm in the planning stages of building something compound charged and diesel, got a few superchargers and a big turbo in my stash, just researching the various car/engine combinations and raising the funds
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froggy
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Dec 13, 2012 10:05:29 GMT
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Tsi is similar to the lancia method but the s/c is clutched so no parasitic losses when its not needed . No longer in production no doubt due to costs compared to just using a turbo .
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Dec 13, 2012 13:52:06 GMT
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Tsi is similar to the lancia method but the s/c is clutched so no parasitic losses when its not needed . No longer in production no doubt due to costs compared to just using a turbo . The TSi is still a current engine of the VW group (Skoda, Seat & VW) and available in 1.2, 1.4 & 1.8 capacities Paul H
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Dec 13, 2012 13:54:47 GMT
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Just run a lysholm charger, best of both world then in one simple package
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Dec 15, 2013 17:44:48 GMT
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Just to resurrect this thread again Been driving my tdo4 turbo'd 1.3 micra for a while now There's a bit of lag, so if I was to use the eaton m24 charger , (pick one up cheap now) then have bypass valve to run on turbo How'd I figure out all the pressures and flow rates, as I dint really get all the Map stuff lol Purely as a learning exercise for now
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Dec 15, 2013 18:13:11 GMT
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Hi Pork, It all depends on how you want to do it, compound charging is the easiest way as you don't need any flow control valves. This would have your turbocharger feeding the supercharger, the supercharger will make boost low down, and then as the turbocharger came on song, it would feed the supercharger the boost, compounding it The other option and considerably more complicated is to do a true twin charged application, as you say like the superturbo march. This requires a control system to switch between the two systems. The VW tsi uses the supercharger pre-turbo and a bypass valve, where the lancia S4 uses the turbo before supercharger, again with a bypass. The difficulty is getting the switch over smoothly and making sure that you don't get flow in the wrong direction
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Super charger and turbosowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Dec 15, 2013 18:17:30 GMT
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Firstly, would the M24 make enough pressure to be worthwhile on a 1.3, Mini's often have the M45 fitted and they're usually 1.3
What boost pressure are you after, you may get all you need sticking an M45 on instead of the turbo?
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Dec 15, 2013 18:48:11 GMT
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I'm only running 8psi at the moment Turbo doesn't come on till 3-4 k, so if I used the s/c with elector magnetic clutch that would disengage at 3500 rpm, it should cancel the lag......right?
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Super charger and turbosowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Dec 15, 2013 19:45:11 GMT
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To be honest, I reckon an M45 should do that easily, then if you want more, stick a turbo over the top of that My brother has compounded his Land Rover, he has a build thread somewhere on here. It has an Eaton M45 on a Land Rover tdi, with standard turbo blowing into that with the wastegate set at 16psi. I think the supercharger alone makes about 8psi max, and the turbo is pumping about 10psi into that, and together they peak at about 24psi.
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Dec 15, 2013 19:48:10 GMT
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That's some cool noise going on there!!
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Dec 15, 2013 19:55:37 GMT
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Going back to the twin/compound question tho, compressor maps boggle my mind, if I used the little m24 to 7psi and then disengages on the electro magnetic clutch, over to the turbo at 3.5k and then turbo does the rest, that way once the turbos spooled up and s/c not engaged, there'll be no parasitic lose from the s/c.......right?
Low down power from s/c High end from turbo
It's only a 1.3 so the smaller charger won't be to much of a drain for the low down power
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Super charger and turbosowen
@sowen
Club Retro Rides Member 24
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Dec 15, 2013 19:57:01 GMT
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It's about as simple and basic as you can make it, problems are it makes a lot of heat by the time the air has been pressurised twice, but is very smooth and driveable. His plans are to fit a larger turbo, as the current one physically cannot supply enough pressurised air to feed the supercharger, and chargecool the intake to keep the temps down.
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pork
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Dec 15, 2013 20:03:01 GMT
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Here's couple off pics Micra super turbo Vw tsi And if anyone could shed some light on how to read the map for the m24 s/c, I'd be greatful
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Dec 15, 2013 20:31:16 GMT
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mine is a very simple system, and seems to work quite well , big turbo through a charge cooler into the throttle body then into the Supercharger into another cooler and finally into the inlet manifold, boost is simply controlled by the wastegate, I'm so happy with it I'm doing bit all again
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