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Nov 17, 2012 12:17:03 GMT
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I could do with some pointers on this, I've had a look on the web and got a bit overwhelmed to be honest.
The DodgeRover runs a perkins 6.247 from a Dodge 50 which to be honest has more than enough power but more is always better right....Its a 4 litre normally aspirated straight six, rather like the Hino and Mazda truck engines, it also runs a Diesel Kiki injection pump which I understand is a Bosch copy.
I've been wanting to turbo it for a long time, but I have no idea what spec stuff to go for, I was thinking of a small turbo so it spools up quickly for boost off the bottom end of the rev range, I've got stacks of space around the engine but virtually nothing above it. Current exhaust manifold outlet size is about 3"
I really don't want to go messing with the pump as spares are none existant so i'm not wanting to run massive amounts of boost. The rest of the engine is (as you would imagine for a perkins) massively over engineered so should be well up to the job.
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Last Edit: Nov 17, 2012 16:11:33 GMT by dodgerover
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
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Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,117
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Nov 17, 2012 14:32:35 GMT
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Why 6.257 if its a 4.0?
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Nov 17, 2012 14:48:46 GMT
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6 cylinder, 257 cubic inch. To convert CI to CC multiply by 16.34 = 4199cc
Colin
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Last Edit: Nov 17, 2012 14:55:57 GMT by colnerov
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Nov 17, 2012 15:58:29 GMT
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After more web searching would a supercharger be better? Its got a massive amount of torque, will pull off in 2nd on the flat even with the 25% overdrive effect high ratio box its got in.
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Nov 17, 2012 18:18:58 GMT
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On dervs, you really need maximum airflow as quickly as possible, but only when actually needed. If you slap on a supercharger, you can easily set it up for 5psi of boost at idle, and have rapid takeoffs - at the cost of excessive drag at higher rpms (what's the rpm limit on this engine though? If it's a truck-like 3000rpm, then it shouldn't be *too* much of an issue) Superchargers are also ALWAYS on, so cruising mpg will suffer a lot. You can get superchargers with bypass valves, and electric clutches - but it's kinda an all or nothing affair. Not nice on a daily. A wastegated turbo would work well, and cheaply - a smallish one is usually perfect for a daily, as nobody really likes trying to pootle round the streets, with a buttload of lag A VNT / VGT turbo is the best compromise, but can be costly to properly control. And no, fitting a boost actuator is NOT properly controlling it, and will return naff mpg, as well as over-stressing the turbo, leading onto a low turbo life. Personally - I'd be looking to get my hands on a turbo from a cummins 4BT. It's essentially the big 6 cyl 5.9 TD, but with 2 cylinders lopped off, so near as dammit 4L. Make a manifold, bolt it on, happy days ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Your standard exhaust should be fine for approx 300Bhp - general rule of thumb: each inch, is good for 100Bhp on a turbo car But..... there's no point having extra air, if you don't have extra fuel. Pump mods are required I'm afraid, to make any of this, any use.
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Nov 17, 2012 19:26:08 GMT
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Bosch Turbo-Pumps have a boost-sensitive actuator to increase the amount of fuel delivery with boost. As far as I know it can be retro-fitted. So if your's is a Bosch copy - have a look on superturbodiesel.com. Te Bosch actuator is called 'ALDA' (google will bring loads of stuff ![:))](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cheesy.png) . So much for my very limited turbo-derv knowledge ;D
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Nov 17, 2012 20:46:26 GMT
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I can easily wind up the amount of fuel it gets through out the range but i'm not sure about dismantling the pump, i'll have a look at one of the broken ones i have and try to compare it with a bosch from a turbo. Like i said they're about as common as poor quality wobbly children's play pony poo made of gold....
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village
Part of things
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Always carries a toolbox. Because Volkswagen.......
Posts: 567
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Nov 17, 2012 21:18:56 GMT
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The engine that used to be in my Vw t4 was turbo charged but had no on boost fuel compensation, and that was standard fit from Vw.
You can simply slap a turbo on your motor and you will feel the benefit.
The on boost fuel compensation is via the device that the "derv stoat" ;-) mentioned, but it's called an LDA.
The turbo on my T4 is tiny, so you could slap a pair of them on your motor for a quick spool and then plenty of boost further up the rev range.
Remember, you will need an oil feed to the turbo and a drain back to the sump.
Stop reading this and get on with it!
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"The White Van is strong with this one...."
Chris "Chesney" Allen 1976-2005 RIP
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Nov 17, 2012 21:24:36 GMT
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If you slap on a supercharger, you can easily set it up for 5psi of boost at idle, and have rapid takeoffs - at the cost of excessive drag at higher rpms (what's the rpm limit on this engine though? If it's a truck-like 3000rpm, then it shouldn't be *too* much of an issue) Superchargers are also ALWAYS on, so cruising mpg will suffer a lot. You can get superchargers with bypass valves, and electric clutches - but it's kinda an all or nothing affair. Not nice on a daily. But..... there's no point having extra air, if you don't have extra fuel. Pump mods are required I'm afraid, to make any of this, any use. From memory max governed speed is about 3800rpm, what about giving it LPG for the extra fueling (I've got plenty of LPG stuff about)
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Nov 17, 2012 22:36:54 GMT
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Adding things like propane, butane (LPG is a combination of the two) or hydrogen, act more like a catalyst than a direct fuel. Good for adding a bit extra power on a well running system, but can't really be used to much effect in how you're imagining it. Not saying it won't work... it just wont give as much of a power boost as you'd like for the amount of effort it'll take ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Shove up a pic of your pump, and we can see what it's similar to ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) You can indeed swap and change bits around on the pumps - you'd need the top ALDA (the whole thing's the ALDA, the pin section is the LDA) but you'd also need to swap the control levers (held in by those PITA weird shaped bolts) and your spring arrangement from the throttle lever, as it's part of the speed governor arrangement. Easiest way to do this, is push the throttle lever out of the standard cover, and just fit it into the new one ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Something else to consider, is the main shaft diameter. It's very likely yours is the smaller shaft diameter (17mm?) rather than the larger one (something like 20mm?) if you're adding a turbo, it's better to try and fit a larger shaft. Which means either a vast amount of machining to your pump body (errr.... no thanks!) or just find another pump from an already turbo engine. The cummins 6BT comes to mind, as it's 6cyl, turbo, and can move a serious amount of fuel!
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Nov 17, 2012 22:54:05 GMT
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ooh, according to this site: boschpump.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/daftar-perkins-engine.htmlIt looks like you've either got a variant of the Bosch P-pump (one small pumping piston for each cylinder - immense tuning options for this!) or an old type of the Bosch VE pump, which *looks* like another 6 cyl VE should bolt straight on, with just a swap of the flange that fits onto the shaft ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Nov 17, 2012 23:04:36 GMT
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If it is the ve pump that he has, what about the pump from the old 6cyl vw lt? I think that was a 2.5 turbo diesel with a ve pump, but you could crank the fuel up for a 4.0 litre.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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Nov 17, 2012 23:19:30 GMT
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it would only go up a small amount, as the piston/camplate combination would be tailored for the 2.5 requirements of duration. With the VE pumps, when you start upping the fuelling, the duration of injection gets longer. This is not a good thing, as there's no guarantee of any major power increase, and it may end up just creating more smoke than useful engine output
If you get the pump from a 6 litre 6 cyl, then you will get the opposite - you'll need to massively reduce the injection duration, to get the correct amount of fuel. It also means it'll happen in a VERY short space of time compared to standard, so torque will likely be improved, at the cost of a slightly harsher sounding engine (increased knock)
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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village
Part of things
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Always carries a toolbox. Because Volkswagen.......
Posts: 567
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Nov 19, 2012 14:05:24 GMT
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you'd need the top ALDA (the whole thing's the ALDA, the pin section is the LDA) every day is a school day!
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"The White Van is strong with this one...."
Chris "Chesney" Allen 1976-2005 RIP
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Nov 25, 2012 20:03:05 GMT
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For the people who were good with suggestions heres some photos of my spare good pump: ![](http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz212/samandgiles/Dodge%2050%20Perkins%206247%20engine%20Diesel%20Kiki%20Pump/DSCF2022.jpg) Other side of engine - loads of room! ![](http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz212/samandgiles/Dodge%2050%20Perkins%206247%20engine%20Diesel%20Kiki%20Pump/th_DSCF2017.jpg) Ok now i have no idea what has happened with photobucket, the photos are where they were when i copied the links, am hoping they spontaniously heal themselves... ![](http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz212/samandgiles/Dodge%2050%20Perkins%206247%20engine%20Diesel%20Kiki%20Pump/DSCF2017.jpg)
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Last Edit: Nov 25, 2012 20:17:22 GMT by dodgerover
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Nov 26, 2012 18:54:43 GMT
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Last Edit: Nov 26, 2012 18:56:12 GMT by chairchild
You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Nov 26, 2012 19:08:34 GMT
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How did you work out it was a Lucas pump?
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Nov 26, 2012 21:34:27 GMT
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I can read "Licence Bosch" - Bosch also made distributor-type pumps ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Nov 26, 2012 23:04:51 GMT
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fair play! I was just going off what I've seen Bosch pumps generally styled as, and generally consider any "weird" styles (like the funky angles out of the pump) as Lucas ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Didn't actually bother looking at the small-print on the tag of the ONLY picture that worked either, lol ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Upside to it being a Bosch, is that the taper on the shaft has a good chance of being the same taper as other Bosch pumps - which means a later pump is only a few drilled holes for mounting away.... in theory Shame the rest of the pics don't work ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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