ianmk2
Part of things
Posts: 116 
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Apr 21, 2016 11:13:10 GMT
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The other time I struggled to get a decent pedal was with an old Orion I once had, it turned out to have some sort of load sensing valve at the back which presumably changed rear braking pressure according to how much load was in the car. It had to be bled with the car on the ground, which is where I was going wrong.
Not sure whether the Granada would have any such valve on it, no doubt if it has, having done a full rebuild you'd be aware of it and accounted for it, but I thought it was worth mentioning
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Apr 21, 2016 13:36:53 GMT
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Great update as always, I really like your new daily! I've not seen a new shape double cab transit before, that's awesome. I can also relate to fixing long term problems before selling a car, my first car had a very noisy wheel bearing for about 18 months, I'd already changed the side I was convinced was causing it and it made no difference, so I just lived with it. A guy came round and bought it for his son, he was completely un-phased by the noisy bearing but my conscience was such that I wasn't happy selling it like that. So the day before they collected I went and got another bearing, fitted it and it was perfect again. I was so pleased they'd not be buying a car off me that I wasn't happy with, but kicked myself for not doing it 18 months ago! As for the brakes, they can be a real pain, I had exactly the same issues with a Mk1 Fiesta, new master cylinder, new wheel cylinders, new callipers, new fluid, numerous methods of bleeding but the same crappy pedal. Unfortunately I never did get to the bottom of it and sold it before it even made the road. I have heard people say that gravity bleeding works best if you can't get a good pedal, all 4 wheels off the floor, undo all the bleed screws and just let fluid drain through under gravity. I've never done it like this myself though. Don't know how to double quote, so this is meant for both your comments! Thanks for your input! Also for the compliments on the daily. I'm totally in love with it myself. It's in a class of its own compared to the previous one. The double cab is both a must and a joy for us. It's such a roomy car... Good to know I'm not alone in fixing things only when it's basically to late for oneself to enjoy them. I have commited to now doing these kind of things in a more timely fashion, lol. we'll see if I actually get to make this happen! I'll try some more bleeding and diagnostic techniques I've been advised about soon. First I'll doe a higher pressure bleed with more volume of fluid flow, if needed a gravity bleed will follow. Then possibly a new MC. And I still hope the drive will at least confirm some braking action. I know some Granada mk1's came with the valve you mention, but mine does not have one. So I can at least rule that out! ;-) |
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ianmk2
Part of things
Posts: 116
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Apr 21, 2016 13:50:06 GMT
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Is the master cylinder original then (or at least, not new) I also read today (on this very parish) that bleeding it using the conventional pumping the brake pedal method can push the MC piston further than its normal range of travel, into areas of the cylinder bore that may be corroded and damage the seal.
I'd never heard of it before, but it makes sense and is something i'll definitely bear in mind in future.
Also have the brakes been upgraded in any way? No doubt this has been covered somewhere else in the thread but I can't rightly remember, Could it be that the master cylinder simply does not push enough fluid, eg if you have rear discs where previously there were drums, or have bigger callipers etc.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Apr 21, 2016 14:01:31 GMT
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Is the master cylinder original then (or at least, not new) I also read today (on this very parish) that bleeding it using the conventional pumping the brake pedal method can push the MC piston further than its normal range of travel, into areas of the cylinder bore that may be corroded and damage the seal. I'd never heard of it before, but it makes sense and is something i'll definitely bear in mind in future. Also have the brakes been upgraded in any way? No doubt this has been covered somewhere else in the thread but I can't rightly remember, Could it be that the master cylinder simply does not push enough fluid, eg if you have rear discs where previously there were drums, or have bigger callipers etc. It's the Original but rebuilt MC. It did not have anything but smooth bore inside, no rusted area. That is why it was rebuilt. It does not leak either (also not into the booster, I checked. The front calipers are new later model ones, they have supposedly the same piston size as the M16 but 30-40% more brake pad area. The rear wheel cylinders have been replaced by as far as I can tell the same ones that came off only new. Also all brake lines are new and were therefore empty. But this is the single reason why a new mc if it comes to that will be of the largest bore version available. |
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gess
Part of things
Posts: 220
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I have been following your thread for the last half a year and must say I am impressed. Really a cool, quality build!
I own a Mk1 Granada 2.6 GL, and have previously own several Granadas.
My current car is a long time project with little and none progress, mainly due to a similar problem as you are facing, soft brake pedal.
Earlier I never had problems with brake bleading, I always got the pedal as it should, no leakages, short pedal travel. But now it is a different story.
I also have swapped to the larger 2.8 / 2.8i calipers. They use the same piston as the smaller calipers, so there should not be any difference in pedal travel due to changing calipers.
On the rear, I have used the same size brake cylinders as original. They come in a variety of piston diameters, but since I am using the original MC i stuck with the original size.
The MC has got new seals, and as far as I can tell there are no leakages. There is a hole on the bottom of the MC, close to the brake booster, where any fluid passing by the seals can leak out, but it is as dry as a desert. I have bled my system using a brake bleader connected to the bleed nipples, I have bled them using the pedal, but still the brakes are not as they should. Some weeks ago I spotted some fluid on the inside of one of the rims, and found that the right brake hose had large cracks in the outer rubber and was leaking slightly. Not a mayor leakage, but maybe enough to make the pedal go further than it should. The hose in mention is only a year old and has actually never been used on the road, so the quality cannot have been very good.
I am hoping that I will get around to testing the brakes again shortly to see if the new hose I fitted will have any impact on the pedal feel.
As you can see, you are not alone in struggling with strange brake problems.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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I have been following your thread for the last half a year and must say I am impressed. Really a cool, quality build! I own a Mk1 Granada 2.6 GL, and have previously own several Granadas. My current car is a long time project with little and none progress, mainly due to a similar problem as you are facing, soft brake pedal. Earlier I never had problems with brake bleading, I always got the pedal as it should, no leakages, short pedal travel. But now it is a different story. I also have swapped to the larger 2.8 / 2.8i calipers. They use the same piston as the smaller calipers, so there should not be any difference in pedal travel due to changing calipers. On the rear, I have used the same size brake cylinders as original. They come in a variety of piston diameters, but since I am using the original MC i stuck with the original size. The MC has got new seals, and as far as I can tell there are no leakages. There is a hole on the bottom of the MC, close to the brake booster, where any fluid passing by the seals can leak out, but it is as dry as a desert. I have bled my system using a brake bleader connected to the bleed nipples, I have bled them using the pedal, but still the brakes are not as they should. Some weeks ago I spotted some fluid on the inside of one of the rims, and found that the right brake hose had large cracks in the outer rubber and was leaking slightly. Not a mayor leakage, but maybe enough to make the pedal go further than it should. The hose in mention is only a year old and has actually never been used on the road, so the quality cannot have been very good. I am hoping that I will get around to testing the brakes again shortly to see if the new hose I fitted will have any impact on the pedal feel. As you can see, you are not alone in struggling with strange brake problems. Thanks for that! And for the kind words as well! This afternoon I'll put the wheels back on and drive the thing. Will see what that turns up... Only thing I did remeber is that I haven't yet put the return spring for the pedal on. So I'm purely relying on the spring in the MC to bring the pedal back up. But that should have nothing to do with how it feels when depressed... I was also wondering last night while awake (not a good thing): would the 2.8i MC even work for me??? It has a bigger bore, but it also hast two ports for the front brakes. I can only use one and block the other off. That led me to think the following: would there be more fluid pushed than there is now with the cirrent mc? I can imagine that as there are two ports eacht port only moves so much fluid, whereas my one port MC might therefore simply push more fluid as it is desgined for one port operation. If taht makes any sense. I'd like to hear opnions on that. MC's are widely available new, yet not cheap! |
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Having 2 ports and only using 1 should not be a functional problem but how have you bled the blanked off port ?
Also having the return spring could have an effect, the piston need to fully retract to allow fluid to re-enter from the reservoir the weight of the pedal can stop this.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Having 2 ports and only using 1 should not be a functional problem but how have you bled the blanked off port ? Also having the return spring could have an effect, the piston need to fully retract to allow fluid to re-enter from the reservoir the weight of the pedal can stop this. The pedal seems to be pushed up all the way with ease by just the pressure of the MC internals, but I will add the spring for sure. I've not yet fitted the MC with two ports for the front brakes. That question was purely in advance for if it came to buying one. I expect to bleed that closed off port after bench bleeding the mc itself (depending on what type off block off plug I find) by either filling that plug with fluid before screwing partially in and then operating the pedal. Tightening the plug and releasing the pedal before opening again and repeating. Letting it push fluid past the threads. Something like that.Not yet given much thought to that as I am still convinced that my problem is not with any of the single components. They all seem to work as they should. Therefore I'm still suspecting air as the cause, the question is just how to expell... |
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gess
Part of things
Posts: 220
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Apr 22, 2016 10:24:16 GMT
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I had a MC from a 2.8 fittet to one of my Granadas, a 2.6 converted to 2.8i. It worked very well. I simply put a bleed nipple in one of the outlets and put a dust cap on top of that. When filling brake fluid I opened the nipple and let some fluid run through it before I closed it. No problems with trapped air. One ting to remember is that the three port Mk2 MC uses different size fittings for the front brakes than the two outlet Mk1 MC. I think Mk1 uses M10 for rear brakes and M12 for front whilst Mk2 uses M10 for all tree.
I tried to convert my current car with a newer MC, but the one I got hold of was old and didn't work. And then my problems started...
The reason why I changed the MC on my old car was a brake problem which I thought was the MC leaking. The pedal could very slowly be pushed all the way to the floor when applied for a long time. I checked everywhere for leakages and found nothing. One day I discovered a small drop of brakefluid on the inside of the left front wheel. I dismantled the caliper and found that the gasket O-ring between the two halves of the caliper had started to leak. I changed the O-ring and the problem was solved. And with the larger bore MC, 2.8i calipers and original rear drums, the brakes were pretty good.
I needed less travel on the pedal to lock the front wheels, and the rear brakes would also brake harder. To maintain the original brake balance between front and back, I should have changed the rear brake cylinders, but I never got around to do it.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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I had a MC from a 2.8 fittet to one of my Granadas, a 2.6 converted to 2.8i. It worked very well. I simply put a bleed nipple in one of the outlets and put a dust cap on top of that. When filling brake fluid I opened the nipple and let some fluid run through it before I closed it. No problems with trapped air. One ting to remember is that the three port Mk2 MC uses different size fittings for the front brakes than the two outlet Mk1 MC. I think Mk1 uses M10 for rear brakes and M12 for front whilst Mk2 uses M10 for all tree. I tried to convert my current car with a newer MC, but the one I got hold of was old and didn't work. And then my problems started... The reason why I changed the MC on my old car was a brake problem which I thought was the MC leaking. The pedal could very slowly be pushed all the way to the floor when applied for a long time. I checked everywhere for leakages and found nothing. One day I discovered a small drop of brakefluid on the inside of the left front wheel. I dismantled the caliper and found that the gasket O-ring between the two halves of the caliper had started to leak. I changed the O-ring and the problem was solved. And with the larger bore MC, 2.8i calipers and original rear drums, the brakes were pretty good. I needed less travel on the pedal to lock the front wheels, and the rear brakes would also brake harder. To maintain the original brake balance between front and back, I should have changed the rear brake cylinders, but I never got around to do it. Thank you for this information! And sorry that it took me so long to reply to it. Although I did something with the information itself. Mojo is just at an all time low. So close to on the road yet so far away. Missed one or two of the meetings I had so wanted to attend as well. And what is bugging me most is that I've tried nearly any and all things anyone has offered as a possible solution to the brake issues. My last resort seems to be this MC change. But at 150 euro's it's not something that is welcome right now. Still having a car that can't be driven is also no good. I guess I'll have to order the part(s) and just get on with it. But it's hard to get me to do anything on the car at the moment. My mind needs that brake issue to be solved... |
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gess
Part of things
Posts: 220
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I have been tinkering with my brake problems all alone in the garage, and that is very unefficient. In the old days I always had some friends helping me with the brake bleeding. Pedal in, open nipple, close nipple, pedal out, and repeat until no air could be seen or heard. Now I am alone and have tried using several methods. Bleedhose with no return valve bleeding into a bottle partly filled with fluid didn't work as the system would draw air in through the threads on the nipple. Vacuum bleeder hooked up to the compressor didn't do it either.
I tried to isolate the problem by removing the brake pipes from the MC and blind it off using bleed nipples, to chech if it was leaking inside, but the test was inconclusive.
But I have moved on from brake problems and reinstalled the steering rack, much thanks to your thread on this awsome Coupé. It has given me my mojo back :-)
Hopefully you will get back on track, and will be able to spend some quality time behind the wheel this summer!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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I have been tinkering with my brake problems all alone in the garage, and that is very unefficient. In the old days I always had some friends helping me with the brake bleeding. Pedal in, open nipple, close nipple, pedal out, and repeat until no air could be seen or heard. Now I am alone and have tried using several methods. Bleedhose with no return valve bleeding into a bottle partly filled with fluid didn't work as the system would draw air in through the threads on the nipple. Vacuum bleeder hooked up to the compressor didn't do it either. I tried to isolate the problem by removing the brake pipes from the MC and blind it off using bleed nipples, to chech if it was leaking inside, but the test was inconclusive. But I have moved on from brake problems and reinstalled the steering rack, much thanks to your thread on this awsome Coupé. It has given me my mojo back :-) Hopefully you will get back on track, and will be able to spend some quality time behind the wheel this summer! I have to admit, working alone is affecting me more and more. I noticed a few weeks back when TheDoctor was also in the barn how much I appreciated not being there alone. having a chat and having extra hands when needed... Still there is also some good news I think I haven't shared. Thing is that it is overshadowed by the persisting brake issues. But.....the ATV look I had from changing over the front springs has solved itself by driving the car a bit up and down the long driveway to the barn. In my experience springs often react to a car being jacked up a lot, or components being changed. So I had hoped exactly this would happen from a little drive. There was now about 1,5 fingers between wheel and wheel well. This does not upset the look of the car, it's stance, too much. I admit, I liked the lower stance a bit more from it's more agressive nature, but it was simply undrivable. I couldn't even get into some Streets without bottoming out on the exhaust clamps. A little ways of travel is simply needed for driveability. I think I have that now. And......the rebuilt steering rack so far seems to be leak free. I had to add some fuid after turning the wheel left and right a couple of times and since then it has stayed at that level. I've also not seen any fluid leaking out of the dust boots. Admittedly I plugged the holes they had on the advice of the rebuilder as they would in the long run allow dirt ingress. But in the past they were also the best indicator for fluid in the boots. Now I just squeezed the boots to hear if there is anything in them, and I left the narrow end unclamped so I could stick something past as a probe for fluid. These checke so far are good. But the car has only done a 10 meters or less hahaha. Still there was a lot of manouvering required. Getting the car out of the barn was pretty easy, getting it back in its spot was far harder. Requiring a lot of steering. The assist feels fine and balanced as well. So I guess those are the silver linings on the persisting clouds... It's that I don't have the money right now, otherwise I would have happily turned the brake issue over to someone else. I was supposed to have some help thursday or Friday, but that fell through unfortunately. Still I guess I just have to go for the new MC as a final option. |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,058
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Glad to hear there is something going right for Granada owners, I'm still waiting for the 3rd rack to arrive for mine after the left hand bellow is filled with fluid and there is too much steering lock on the rack causing the left front tyre to rub on the inner arch on full left lock  Have you changed the rear wheel cylinders from their original standard spec? May be a bore size thing causing the pedal travel issues  Pretty sure the front calipers all use the same size bore for the pistons, just the pad friction surface area is greater on the vented disc calipers  |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Glad to hear there is something going right for Granada owners, I'm still waiting for the 3rd rack to arrive for mine after the left hand bellow is filled with fluid and there is too much steering lock on the rack causing the left front tyre to rub on the inner arch on full left lock Have you changed the rear wheel cylinders from their original standard spec? May be a bore size thing causing the pedal travel issues Pretty sure the front calipers all use the same size bore for the pistons, just the pad friction surface area is greater on the vented disc calipers I had my rack rebuilt professionally after having done it myself (just changing out all rubber components as the nylon stuff was not to be found anywhere) and it still leaking. It was expensive, but so far well worth it to not have the headaches of the system leaking anymore. I don;t know where you get your racks from? I do know they are prone to failing, but according to my rebuild guy, once done right, they will last ages agaim. Well here's to that! lol. As much as I hate my brake issues, I think once I'm past them only then the real scary stuff begins...the car will be used and that will no doubt prove what I did right and what I did wrong and what needs more work. Fortunately, the mechanicals are easily available second hand or even new. I do hope it won't leave me stranded too often. The wheel cylinders are replaced and according to the order sheet by the right 2.6 liter standard ones. Should therefore be the same as were on before. At least I had no reason to think otherwise. I measured the contact patch and it was the exact same size. But I was reluctant to opening up new parts possibly damaging them only to measure the inner cilinder size. The car does brake pretty well with the handbrake. And from looking at the disks, I do feel that it's the front of the system that isn't braking hard enough. The disks should have been skimmed from any rust buildup (was very little actually on them) after braking a few times, yet there is still a little sheen of orange. It's a tough cookie to swallow buying that new MC and doing the work to get it in (it needs some changes made). But I guess I will have to do it... I seriously don't believe in air in the system anymore. On the other hand I'm afraid to be proven wrong after having done the work and the brakes still feeling the same... |
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Sounds like you are making great progress, even if the brakes still cause problems.
Sounds silly, but have you tried the old fashioned brake bleeding with one person working the pedal and another working the nipples? I have tried pressure bleeding and one-man stuff, but using a second person is the way I would always chose to do it.
If you get stuck needing another pair of hands feel free to give me shout. Generally can be around most evenings and weekends, and you never know, might help me find the motivation to get on with my own car again!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sounds like you are making great progress, even if the brakes still cause problems. Sounds silly, but have you tried the old fashioned brake bleeding with one person working the pedal and another working the nipples? I have tried pressure bleeding and one-man stuff, but using a second person is the way I would always chose to do it. If you get stuck needing another pair of hands feel free to give me shout. Generally can be around most evenings and weekends, and you never know, might help me find the motivation to get on with my own car again! Given where I left the thread... yes, there was some progress as I didn't really report on it before. But taking into account when I achieved those results, for me it feels like I'm at a standstill. And motivation was actually high after receiving the steering rack. And although not perfectly plain sailing, the installation of both the rack and the springs went relatively well and were actually enjoyable! I was well motivated that saturday with TheDoctor, it was only after that day not actually having gotten any further with the problem that frustration set in. I think I will go to the barn tonight or some night this week just to replace the rear window seal and finish fitting the rear cabin area out with the sail panels and seat belt reels. That may help feel better. Only thing left is to try your rev counter solution out as this has been sitting due to brake and subsequent mojo issues as opening up the dash again is no fun at all... But at the moment cost is also working against me. I need about 450-500 euro's to get the car done. New MC, rewebbed seat belts (MOT requirement), small items, trailer rental for transportation to alignment/Mot shop and finally the alignment and MOT itself. In hindsight, buying the new car was a bit badly timed, as additional costs such as higher Insurance etc. ate the Granada budget away... Still. I'll get there! Sam, I'd love a second or third opinion on the brakes. I don't know if an evening gives us enough time for a decent diagnosis? I can usually be at the barn around 19hrs. Usually clean up and leave around 21:30 at the latest. Weekends I usually am able to free my saturdays, at least up to around 16hrs. And to answer your question, yes, I bled the old fashioned way. That were my first four attempts. First MC (rebuilt which I think was the Original one coming off the car) didn't push any fluid to the rear lines, so I changed it out for the current rebuilt one. Re-bled, now getting fluid to all lines, but with the lousy brakes as a result. I repeated that at least twice in a effort to expell air and improve braking before switching to pressure bleeding (top down) which I've now done twice as well. I've also pulled the MC from the booster to see if it leaked in there. And it doesn't. Although the piston shows signs of fluid on it after having been pushed in after cleaning. But this may be correct as to lubricate it's movement through the big rubber plug at the front of the MC innards. There's no drop forming or anything. I do seem to be quite good at motivating people to work on their projects, which is kind of funny given how I'm feeling towards mine currently. Although typing this actually boosts my own mojo as I now feel a more compelling need to at least finish the rear cabin and then get on with the dash while fighting the brakes. And to be honest, I do realise that I'm very close to having my car on the road! The brakes and alignment are the last issues. |
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The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,446
Club RR Member Number: 48
Member is Online
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May 10, 2016 12:38:41 GMT
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I was planning on going to the barn saturday, so i'll be around if you need a hand  |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 10, 2016 13:47:14 GMT
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I was planning on going to the barn saturday, so i'll be around if you need a hand Good to know as I'm planning the same. But I believe you were almost as puzzled as me, lol. I now have bitten the bullet and bought both a new thermostat (as I doubt the current one) and the new MC. Delivery will take a while but the brand and price make up for that. I'd like to take you guys up on the offer of having an m10x1 brake line fitting for me and the tools to reflare the brake line. Leaves me with sorting either a blanking plug or an M10x1 bleed nipple (preferred). Stupid issue here is that a 3,40 euro part from online stores will almost cost 15 by the time it's delivered. Do you know of a local supplier for such a thing? Don't suppose you have such a thing lying around? Funny thing: the Bob thermostat is hard to find. When looking it up on almost all parts catalogues they come up with the wrong part. It's supposedly used also in the galaxy's with a 2.8? But the easiest replacement part is a LADA part lol. And cheapest as well. Funny how just chatting about the project helps get one in the mood for doing stuff again! |
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The Doctor
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,446
Club RR Member Number: 48
Member is Online
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May 10, 2016 14:05:43 GMT
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I've got a flaring kit in my toolbox. I don't know about brake line fittings/bleed nipples, as most i've got are the ones i've saved from scrap Toyota's.
We can always try if i've got something that fits? or we can reuse the ones you've got now?
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Last Edit: May 10, 2016 14:07:26 GMT by The Doctor
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 10, 2016 14:14:57 GMT
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I guess it was one of the others who said that he had a nipple for me then. No problem. It's great that the tool to flare is available. The required bleed nipple is larger than the regular ford ones. Also it's a new addition to the system so there is no old one to reuse. This because I'm using it to block the extra port of the MC with the capability of bleeding it so no air is left there.
I'll ask theguys via app tonight about the nipple or a source for them.
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