eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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stupid left field question/suggestion but are those plugs gapped correctly? it looks huuuuge (from my experience) The gap does seem big, but is measures in at 0.8mm roughly as the best tool for this determination was not available. I'm currently trying to find the plug gap values for this engine. Thanks for this tip though as this is one thing I never thought of checking. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Lack of heat might be lack of compression - cam timing out? If it's letting the combustion out or not letting enough air in then there will not be a lot of heat developed. It is looking like cam timing the more you describe it. Compression test will confirm it. Make sure compression is checked with ALL plugs out (& ign disabled!) and with throttle pedal fully depressed (throttle wide open) and that battery is fully charged. Even testing 6 cylinders will flatten the battery enough to give lower readings by the time you are at the 5th & 6th cylinders so you may need to pop it on charge for a bit to re check. Thanks, I agree. I have a tester from a friend so I'll have a look today. Though not much time as it's my sons birthday (9). The oil is now beginning to smell of fuel as well. This leads me to believe a repeat test but with some oil in the bore is a good idea to confirm piston ring condition. |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,058 
Club RR Member Number: 77
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May 29, 2015 12:18:59 GMT
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The plug gap is usually about 1mm on the 24v. The BOA uses platinum plugs as well, and its advised not to check the gap with feeler gauges as it damages the platinum coating :/ It is sounding like the timing is out on one bank tho, but from memory the BOB has a camshaft sensor on one camshaft onthe left hand bank I seem to remember. Checking the timing is a pain, but should be checkable with just the inlet manifold and camshaft covers off  And at least you have seperate gaskets on the BOB, unlike the poxy things on the BOA  |
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May 29, 2015 12:28:54 GMT
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don't panic too much if compression is low, the really important thing is all cylinder should be within 10% of each other.
I'd hope for anywhere between 110Psi to 170Psi pressure.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 29, 2015 13:16:25 GMT
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Lack of heat might be lack of compression - cam timing out? If it's letting the combustion out or not letting enough air in then there will not be a lot of heat developed. It is looking like cam timing the more you describe it. Compression test will confirm it. Make sure compression is checked with ALL plugs out (& ign disabled!) and with throttle pedal fully depressed (throttle wide open) and that battery is fully charged. Even testing 6 cylinders will flatten the battery enough to give lower readings by the time you are at the 5th & 6th cylinders so you may need to pop it on charge for a bit to re check. Well the results are in and they ain't pretty... The engine is fooked... Now it's just a matter of determining how bad en how to move forward (and pay for it)! Behold: Cyl 1: 9b 130 psi Cyl 2: 8,4b 120 psi Cyl 3: 8,8b 125 psi Cyl 4: 2b 30psi Cyl 5: 0b Cyl 6: 6,4b 95 psi Cyl 4 with oil 1 minute after adding: 6,3b 90 psi and 12b after probably 10 minutes. Cyl 5 with oil on it.... 0 still. No time to start tearing into it so now it's still a guess to what is the actual cause. Timing shifted? Bent (open) valves, piston with a hole, head gasket....?? And a tough decision on how to move ahead. Different engine (can only find a high miler) or fix this thing for a few hundred pounds... curse word! And this engine was sold as mechanically 100% sound.... I'll see if I can still connect with the seller 5 years after the fact... |
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May 29, 2015 13:21:34 GMT
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curse word, thats not good Could just be a head gasket or stuck valves in one head? Is it possible to get the head off with the engine still in the car? Difficult to tell what is causing it without tearing into it I guess. |
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May 29, 2015 13:45:07 GMT
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...sorry to hear that news ...
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May 29, 2015 15:17:53 GMT
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bad, but definitive news at least
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May 29, 2015 18:45:18 GMT
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It wont be a holed piston.
No compression after oil added means valves.
So back to original thought, cam timing is definitely out which is born out by those 3 cylinders all being off. No other reason for all 3 to be out.
Take the covers off and check before doing anything else, it may just need timing properly and be sweet.
Incorrect can timing will totally curse word an engines running.
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meltdown
South West
Isn't letting old age get the better of him, still making the same bad decisions with vehicles.
Posts: 687
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May 29, 2015 20:16:35 GMT
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If there was a like button for BPR's comment |
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Powered by biscuits
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tdipd
Part of things
Posts: 121
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May 29, 2015 20:33:30 GMT
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As blacktop racing says it's looking like timing out or worst case bend valves.
If you put the cylinder 4 5 or 6 to top dead centre on the compression stroke, you can blast compressed air down the spark plug hole with a blow gun, if you can get a good enough seal you should hear the air rushing out your exhaust pipe if the exhaust valves are open or damaged, or out the throttle body (prop it open with a screwdriver) if it's the intake cam that's out or intake valves damaged.
It's the poor mans way of doing a leak down test.
You'll hear a little air come out your oil filler cap, that's escaping past the piston rings gaps and a little is normal.
I had a compression tester with a broken gauge, so I drilled out the one-way valve and attached my blow gun to it to get a perfect seal that screws into the spark plug hole.
It's also good to find out if you've a blown head gasket, blast in the air and see the bubbles in the coolant tank!
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tdipd
Part of things
Posts: 121
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May 29, 2015 20:37:59 GMT
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Ps make sure it's top dead centre on the compression stroke, not the intake, as on the intakes stroke the valves will open will open near immediately after tdc. And if you have the intake cam timing out here (or a stretched timing chain) Theres a chance the open at
I've used this to diagnose a stretched timing chain on my 190e cosworth, blown gasket on my Impreza wrx, and a melted intake valve on my legacy twin turbs...
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spot
Part of things
Posts: 105
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May 30, 2015 16:48:03 GMT
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Its not so bad. There is a positive in this news...
Alex, you should take great pride and feel such elation in knowing that you have built a very, very nice car. ALL THAT YOU HAVE DONE has been flawless in approach and execution!
Please take some solace in knowing what you do now -
I say this because I'm sure you (Me and others) still had aspirations of you finding a solution before the show dawned, yet it was to be beyond your control that the deadline was not achieved as planned.
Enjoy the show: Come back refreshed, ready and fighting...
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sonus
Europe
Posts: 1,391
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I wish I could help you somehow, but my knowledge of these engines is zero.
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Current
1968 TVR VIXEN S1 V8 Prototype
2004 TVR T350C
2017 BMW 340i
Previous
BMW 325d E91LCI - sold
Alfa Romeo GTV - sold
Citroen AX GT - at the breakers
Ford Puma 1.7 - sold
Volvo V50 2.0d - sold
MGB GT - wrecked by fire
MG ZT 1.8T - sold
VW E-golf Electric - sold
Mini Countryman 1.6D -sold
Land Rover Discovery TD5 - sold
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May 31, 2015 15:41:50 GMT
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It may not be bad news. I had a V8 jaguar that ran great one day and wouldn't start the next. After checking lots of things I did a compression check and found between 0 and 30psi across all eight cylinders. To cut a long story short I found out that this engine and others used low friction piston rings that rely on the oil to provide compression. The reason it had lost it's oil compression is the night before I had started the car and moved it 10 feet and turned it off. As it was sill on it's rich fuel cycle it had fuel residue in the bores when switched off and this had washed the oil away. To get it started I had to put oil down each bore and put my foot to the floor on the accelerator (This actually stops fuel injecting) and then turn it over for some time and then it started once I had taken my foot of the accelerator.
May be worth a try but I would take the fuse out of the fuel pump to make sure no fuel is getting through.
Just to add I did check compression after adding oil but it only came up to 40 or 50 PSI but checked after a run and it was at 150psi. It has happened since and I went through two batteries to get it going.
Hope this helps.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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As blacktop racing says it's looking like timing out or worst case bend valves. If you put the cylinder 4 5 or 6 to top dead centre on the compression stroke, you can blast compressed air down the spark plug hole with a blow gun, if you can get a good enough seal you should hear the air rushing out your exhaust pipe if the exhaust valves are open or damaged, or out the throttle body (prop it open with a screwdriver) if it's the intake cam that's out or intake valves damaged. It's the poor mans way of doing a leak down test. You'll hear a little air come out your oil filler cap, that's escaping past the piston rings gaps and a little is normal. I had a compression tester with a broken gauge, so I drilled out the one-way valve and attached my blow gun to it to get a perfect seal that screws into the spark plug hole. It's also good to find out if you've a blown head gasket, blast in the air and see the bubbles in the coolant tank! Thanks for this input! The saga continues, but you are on the right track with your comment! After doing the test Friday I was working on the interior carpetting when the owner's dad stepped in. This man, now retired, has been a ford mechanic for ages and a ford trainer and general troubleshooter for when no-one knows how to proceed... So I took a chance and asked for his opinion. He told me to now do a leak test as you described with compressed air and listening where it exits: intake, exhaust or coolant. This would be a good addition to the tests already done in determining the issue. The slightly positive news is that this man is questioning any suspected mechanical issues, but rather the oil in the block. I put in 10w40 as a nice medium to what Ford prescribes. The thought is that the thicker oil is keeping the hydraulic cam followers pumped up, not allowing the valves to depress them ever so slightly and therefore not being able to fully close/seat. Hence no compression. I'm not sure about this theory myself. But this man has seen so many issues resolved that were deemed unlikely to ever be solved that I do believe he has at the very least a rather easily tested theory. So if after the leak test it is warrented, the oil will be drained, the filter emptied but refitted and thinner 5w30 oil added. He said to then let the engine warm up really well even though it may sound counter intuitive. If it resolves the problem then change the oil again with new filter and enjoy the car.... So I have some hope, yet not too much. There have been more ford engines with this problem and I once even owned one. So however far fetched it may sound, I know there's truth to it. Still I'm trying not ot clutch at straws too much. So one of these days when the prepared spark plug is on site I'll dig in deeper. Until then I'll continue on the interior. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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It may not be bad news. I had a V8 jaguar that ran great one day and wouldn't start the next. After checking lots of things I did a compression check and found between 0 and 30psi across all eight cylinders. To cut a long story short I found out that this engine and others used low friction piston rings that rely on the oil to provide compression. The reason it had lost it's oil compression is the night before I had started the car and moved it 10 feet and turned it off. As it was sill on it's rich fuel cycle it had fuel residue in the bores when switched off and this had washed the oil away. To get it started I had to put oil down each bore and put my foot to the floor on the accelerator (This actually stops fuel injecting) and then turn it over for some time and then it started once I had taken my foot of the accelerator. May be worth a try but I would take the fuse out of the fuel pump to make sure no fuel is getting through. Just to add I did check compression after adding oil but it only came up to 40 or 50 PSI but checked after a run and it was at 150psi. It has happened since and I went through two batteries to get it going. Hope this helps. Though not completely the same your story relates to the update I just added. We'll see what happens! Thanks for speaking up. It once again triggerd a train of thought at the very least! |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Did the leaktest today...
Cyl 4 leaked somewhat to the crankcase
Cyl 5 leaked massively to the exhaust
cyl 6 leaked just a hint to the crankcase
No bubling in the coolant, no leaking out the intake...
So, am I right to be sure of having a stuck open exhaust valve? I think so. But then, what would be the cause?
Would it be the oil which at 10w40 is somewhat thicker then the retired ex ford mechanic would like to see (5w 30 or even 5w20), keeping the hydraulic tappet pumped up and therefore the valve open? Or bent valve? A regular cologne V6 is a non interference engine, but whether a 24V V6 Bob is non interference as well I don't know.
So I'm just curious, what to do next...
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If you could borrow a boroscope it would be good to look inside the engine through the plug hole.
Id start by checking cam timing, maybe pull the hydraulic lifter if you are able to.
You could take the exhaust manifold off and try to look in to see if any foriegn object is holding the valve open?
Its certainly not terminal but you might need to remove the head to sort it.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Well, the weekend of the meeting has come and gone...
The Friday before the meeting I got to do the leak test. The results I posted earlier. It's now a question of determining how to proceed.
I had a good day working on the car, though again, it all takes so much more time and effort than expected.
I got the carpet sections made up. All but the last two inner sill pieces. I prepared fot the installation of the dash by routing the vent hoses and dry fitting the dash pad and lower panel. I installed the rear seats and side bolsters to judge how far from the panels they'd be. Turns out I need to fill about a 4cm space with the panel. Should be doable but still a bit tricky as well. I'm sure I'll figure it out completely soon. I do now know the interior will look ace when done!!
And with that time was again up for this week.
I went home and prepped for the meeting. It was a 200km drive one way. I had a great time with my son, who went to his first meeting! I was able to finally swap the last trim piece for the car... so now I can finish the exterior.
The meeting was a bit smaller scale than when I last attended. I was a bit disappointed at the absence of vendors etc. I had counted on buying some small stuf or finding a better example of some small items. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I met up with some acqaintences from 8 years ago and had a good chat with many.
I did happen to meet fellow RR contributor and thread follower Spot and his lovely wife. Thank heavens my english is good enough to carry a bit of conversation. In all honesty it was meeting them that saved my day. We had a good time untill I had to leave them as my son was getting a bit restless and wanted to leave for home. He fell asleep after a few miles. His best memory was being "skeltered" (pedal car thingy) around by Spot's wife! Followed by sitting in a prostreet car.
All in all a good weekend and giving me new mojo to get the car done. I just wish I new what would be the right way forward....
One thing I did notice though, that even the nicest Granada at the meet didn't come close to my standard. And there were some well represented ones there. Most of them are let down by a rust bubble here or a flaw in the pre paint stage (poly wings being an easy give away) or in case both interior and exterior was looking great, the under body mechanicals. I'm not judging these cars or discarding them as lesser cars, as it also just depends on what you want from your car (driver/showqueen) and the budget one has... It seems however that I'm a special rare kind of Granada nut that goes just that little bit further...
August 8 and 9th there's anothe chance at a Granada/Ford meeting in Zonhoven, Belgium. I've set myself that as a goal to have the car ready and shaken down enough to confidently attempt going there in it...
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