eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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My code reader was in yesterday, so I quickly headed to the workshop to the car.
I connected the battery and read the ecu, clean no codes. I did a readiness test and that showed not all systems were ready, but that was to be expected as the car has never gone through a normal driving cycle encountering all conditions to set those items. I then started the car and within a fraction of a second a first code appeared. I left the car running for a bit, revved it some etc. No new codes, just the initial one.
Code P0340, camshaft circuit failure on bank 2. Meaning either the sensor or the wiring to the sensor has a problem or worst case the ecu/pcm has a problem. Cleaning teh sensor made no difference so I'll replace it with my spare next time around. I'm not expecting this to solve the problem, but it would be nice. I expect to have to chase the wires. Maybe one is grounded to the block, pinched somewhere in the intake/injector rail area as this is where it comes from.
I know what to check for, but I still have to figure out how to do that as simple as possible.
At least it's a step forward, hopefully it's also the real answer to my problems and not just the start of a code chase fixing one getting another.
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May 20, 2015 12:06:42 GMT
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Yes! progress! Cam sensor will certainly make it run bad.
Trust me, it's bad now but when you finally get to drive it it will all be forgotten and you will love it.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 20, 2015 12:15:02 GMT
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Yes! progress! Cam sensor will certainly make it run bad. Trust me, it's bad now but when you finally get to drive it it will all be forgotten and you will love it. Oh I know! I know... Truth be told, now I've accepted that I'm not making my deadline again, I also see some fun in chasing this issue down. I've enourmously improved my wiring/testing skills and got to know this engine better then ever before... But it still remains disappointing that it had to be this way, cause had this issue not existed, I might have had a better shot at my deadline... |
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May 20, 2015 13:02:05 GMT
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These things are sent to try us, and whilst you might have missed this deadline there will be many more shows, and much more time to enjoy the car in the future. Better to get it right now, than have small problems forever.
Good that the code reader has given you a direction to look, hopefully it will be easy to fix now.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 25, 2015 12:08:21 GMT
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Well I'm about ready to torch the beeb beep car!!!
The damned engine still will not run properly despite fixing the sensor and getting no more error codes...
I've had it but will have to keep going anyway. My mood is grim because of it. The end so near and yet weeks of work haven't gotten me any closer to finishing.
Now off to buy a compression tester... I'm having visions of having to pull the entire engine...
The soap continues!
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Posts: 105
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May 25, 2015 17:59:51 GMT
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Hello Alex. Sorry to hear that the engine is not working correctly...really feel your frustration from here!! Although I don't know FA about BOA/BOB I thought i'd have a little look at some things: See if I can help with (un)helpful suggestions  I did find a good electrical diagram on the Capri Site - www.capriwiki.com/images/c/c2/24vWiring.jpgHave you seen this before? Just curious as I was reading on the Scorpio site about the ECU and PCM signals. Seems alot of 'chatting' goes on on with sensors that may be speaking 'double dutch' to each other (Opps double dutch to a Dutch Guy  ) and throwing things out of balance. Does R2D2 only find bad sensors or can it manipulate things also? With R2D2 connected in circuit have you tried breaking the circuit to see if that flags any connectivity issues: Perhaps sensor responds as present but is lazy? I recall you 'fixed' the gearbox pickup - if the ECU sees something bad would this kick in some 'Limp' mode on the rest of the system??? Engine hardware: I don't recall reading so; but did you ever see this engine running prior to fitting it? Is it possible that the engine was not so well put together as described? Are the cam covers removable in situ: Have you got sticking valves, broken cam. On the Scorpio site there is an article on an engine that would not idle because of a wrongly supplied washer! Could it be as simple as that I wonder? On the fuel side of things. I read something on swirl pots and it seems you run two pumps. A LP pump from the tank to the pot, then HP pump to fuel rail: Is that how you have yours? Have you tried bypassing the pot and feed the system off your main pump & return feed pipe? Just wondered if a pot wasn't fitted OEM perhaps the two pumps are upsetting things.... Lovely: I may be able to fly over on Friday evening. If you can push MY car out of the garage before closing and leave the keys up the exhaust pipe, It'll be gone by Saturday morning Failing that - Can you tell me of the Granny bash you are trying to get to? If Fridays release doesn't happen I may get some time off to attend myself.....I'll bring a spare Essex with me so I can drive MY car back Best wishes |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Hello Alex. Sorry to hear that the engine is not working correctly...really feel your frustration from here!! Although I don't know FA about BOA/BOB I thought i'd have a little look at some things: See if I can help with (un)helpful suggestions I did find a good electrical diagram on the Capri Site - www.capriwiki.com/images/c/c2/24vWiring.jpgHave you seen this before? Just curious as I was reading on the Scorpio site about the ECU and PCM signals. Seems alot of 'chatting' goes on on with sensors that may be speaking 'double dutch' to each other (Opps double dutch to a Dutch Guy ) and throwing things out of balance. Does R2D2 only find bad sensors or can it manipulate things also? With R2D2 connected in circuit have you tried breaking the circuit to see if that flags any connectivity issues: Perhaps sensor responds as present but is lazy? I recall you 'fixed' the gearbox pickup - if the ECU sees something bad would this kick in some 'Limp' mode on the rest of the system??? Engine hardware: I don't recall reading so; but did you ever see this engine running prior to fitting it? Is it possible that the engine was not so well put together as described? Are the cam covers removable in situ: Have you got sticking valves, broken cam. On the Scorpio site there is an article on an engine that would not idle because of a wrongly supplied washer! Could it be as simple as that I wonder? On the fuel side of things. I read something on swirl pots and it seems you run two pumps. A LP pump from the tank to the pot, then HP pump to fuel rail: Is that how you have yours? Have you tried bypassing the pot and feed the system off your main pump & return feed pipe? Just wondered if a pot wasn't fitted OEM perhaps the two pumps are upsetting things.... Lovely: I may be able to fly over on Friday evening. If you can push MY car out of the garage before closing and leave the keys up the exhaust pipe, It'll be gone by Saturday morning Failing that - Can you tell me of the Granny bash you are trying to get to? If Fridays release doesn't happen I may get some time off to attend myself.....I'll bring a spare Essex with me so I can drive MY car back Best wishes Thanks for your input. You raise some valid points. Yes, I'm really getting frustrated. I'm pretty much down to either hanging injectors (open) or a slipped timing chain on the right hand bank. Checking for both of these means stripping the top end down...so the fuel rails and valve covers can be removed. Not a job I'd like to do just now, but I may have to. The link shows a BOA setup, which is somewhat different. Though now all codes are gone, and the engine in itself does run/spark etc. I don't think it is a wiring issue at all. Sensors not talking the right language would I presume pop up as codes. The faulty camshaft sensor did. Could possibly be vacuum but haven't been able to determine how/where and wouldn't know why that would only affect half the engine. More likely is either injectors on that side or timing chain slippage. My code reader reads and erases codes. It's not a unit that can tweak values as you go. I broke some circuits and that did immediately cause the reader to respond with a code. But the injectors for instance are too deep down to get to with the engine running. So I'm unsure whether problems here would be flagged. That is why testing is probably the only thing left. As for limp mode, I would expect to see a code for that as well. Besides I also would think that limp mode would still use all cylinders. But this too may be a valid point, raising more questions rather then answering any. I never saw this engine run. It was bought from an engine builder who I trust. If there is anything wrong with this engine, it's probably unknow to him as well. I will confront him if this is proven to be the case as he proclaimed the engine 100% mechanically sound. There was however a reported wiring loom issue, which is why I had it checked wire by wire. So yes, it may be that the engine isn't as good as it was proclaimed. Again, only tearing it down to at a minimum the valve covers/intake should prove this. I don't see how a swirl pot would be a problem, it's just a smaller fuel tank. And closer to the engine at that. I do have to verify thet there is fuel coming from the return line of the fuel rails, but those are messy and awkward jobs. I'll have to stick to it an d get this issue fixed. I want to enjoy at least the summer in this car... Although currently it is definitely pi$$ing me off... I keep moving forward. Working on the carpet and dash and door and side panels now... And have finished my striping design... That's just it though right there...there's just still so much to do and this engien stuff just keeps costing me valuable hours. I've started looking for a replacement... just to be sure but just as I need one, I can't find affordable ones.... The meeting I wanted to go to is ford freaks nieuwleusen 2015. An event in nieuwleusen, the Netherlands. It's a small town, but somehow is has the highest single concentration of granada's and other old fords. It's a good easy going show, nice and friendly not too huge. I would have so much loved to show my car there and hopefully go home with another best of show award... But it's not meant to be, just as so many other things in my life. Ford freaks 2015This was me in 2006... 2nd place best of show with a car not even fully done...  So I still feel down because life already is far from easy and now even my beloved hobby, my car that I have done so much for is fighting me.... I just can't get past all that to feel happy....yet I keep going on... |
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May 27, 2015 17:42:58 GMT
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Hi Alex, Have been trying to find some info for you, and me as well ('Cos I know about carburettors but not injection), and although I found some useful bits; mostly threads die and no follows ups which is frustrating... Showed your video to my better half yesterday: She loves the car but says the engine is suffocating I guess that narrows it down! She says fuel or vacuum, I said fuel or timing Aside from the above, I do have a niggle concerning your wiring. As far back as Page 1 there is talk of bad wiring and worries of swapping out the fuse boxes (How did you do that in the end?) to the modded loom. Its a thought that I have after reading what one of the other lads have mentioned before about the 'trigger' wires to the coils. Now they may be all firing, but are they firing in the correct sequence? Maybe lay all six plugs out and grounded and film it in the dark. Playback could reveal what is firing and when. Another 'random thought': I know you're reluctant to remove bits yet to get to the injectors, but what if you were to remove the plugs and insert a roll of card to see if its gets wet: would this not confirm that the cylinder is getting fuel I wonder? I've got loads of other random titbits if they're not annoying you too much Best wishes |
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May 27, 2015 18:41:34 GMT
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... Swirl pots bascially serve two purposes, firstly, they provide an even/constant supply of fuel for normal running and secondly they provide even fuel flow when cornering hard or changing direction 'spiritedly' .... so the basic fact of 'yes there's fuel present' may not be the answer ... could be the supply is a little intermittent...
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Last Edit: May 27, 2015 18:42:45 GMT by westbay
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Hi Alex, Have been trying to find some info for you, and me as well ('Cos I know about carburettors but not injection), and although I found some useful bits; mostly threads die and no follows ups which is frustrating... Showed your video to my better half yesterday: She loves the car but says the engine is suffocating I guess that narrows it down! She says fuel or vacuum, I said fuel or timing Aside from the above, I do have a niggle concerning your wiring. As far back as Page 1 there is talk of bad wiring and worries of swapping out the fuse boxes (How did you do that in the end?) to the modded loom. Its a thought that I have after reading what one of the other lads have mentioned before about the 'trigger' wires to the coils. Now they may be all firing, but are they firing in the correct sequence? Maybe lay all six plugs out and grounded and film it in the dark. Playback could reveal what is firing and when. Another 'random thought': I know you're reluctant to remove bits yet to get to the injectors, but what if you were to remove the plugs and insert a roll of card to see if its gets wet: would this not confirm that the cylinder is getting fuel I wonder? I've got loads of other random titbits if they're not annoying you too much Best wishes Haha, thanks! It's is appreciated. Don't know if it really is any help, but any suggestion is worth at least thinking about if not seriously delving into. So lets see what you've come up with this time. By the way I agree, too many threads on these kind of subjects die without any solution provided. That is why I will document anything I learn/discover. Both you and your wife seem to think like me. I'm leaning towards your side though! Let's dissect the issue. The engine runs but seemingly on one bank as the other bank remains cold to the touch after running for minutes. The vacuum system is hooked up according to the schedule in a manual I have and does not seem to be influenced at all by spraying a flammable liquid around intake, vacuum lines etc. Plugging or unplugging lines also has no influence. Admittedly that I find weird. The train of thought after all checks is that there is spark and seemingly fuel as well. As far as crossed wires to the coilpack, I don't believe that. every wire was traced from it's origin to the end connector. A crossed wire would have come up. So conclusion: stuck open injectors flooding the engine of timing issue causing loss of compression. The injectors stuck open to me do not fit the fact that when the engine is running and I give it less air by restricting flow through the air flow meter it starts running better. I'd expect that the more fuel is injected the more air is needed to get to the correct ratio for combustion. So I'm not sure that will be the case. However, only one way to find out for sure: removing the injectors and testing them on the engine. The proposed paper roll thing could work but I already know that the plugs when pulled from the engine are wet. I'll add the pics below. Cyl 4:    Cyl 5:    Cyl 6:   So assuming there is spark because I checked, fuel because the plugs are wet, and obviously air combined with no faults in the computer I'm inclined to believe that timing on the bank is the issue. Cossie V6's are known for weak guides so it's definitely a possibility. The check: again, removing intake and valve covers so the marks can be checked. Getting back to the wiring and removal of the fuse boxes. A knowledgable friend who's built many a cosworth custom loom and restored many an Original did that. He used the schematics and also created a full bench test. In that test, Sparks flew, injectors fired, pumps ran etc. Also every wire was traced and measured for resistance etc. A crossed wire I cannot imagine, but should also be something relatively easy to check. One other thing not fysically checked is the fuel return from the fuel rail. Supply is good and steady. The check for this is rather messy. The swirl pot wil start emptying itself, the engine running will pump out fuel as well... not looking forward to that. Also, if fuel was not supplied steadily, any cylinder woudl suffer, not just 4-6. But I guess this will be checked when I check the injectors. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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... Swirl pots bascially serve two purposes, firstly, they provide an even/constant supply of fuel for normal running and secondly they provide even fuel flow when cornering hard or changing direction 'spiritedly' .... so the basic fact of 'yes there's fuel present' may not be the answer ... could be the supply is a little intermittent... I would think that an intermittent supply would also affect cyl 1-3 not just 4-6. The supply seems steady, the line is under pressure any time I checked. The return has not been checked, I'll probably do that even though it's messy. But he spark plugs seem to suggest there is fuel in cyl 4-6 as well. |
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May 28, 2015 10:25:01 GMT
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Hi Alex
Just a couple of thoughts, have you got a fuel feed to each bank or does it flow in a loop? and, have you got the input / output / returns connected in correct sequence?
ps begining to share your frustration ! but, it will be overcome and well worth it when solved ...
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May 28, 2015 10:31:24 GMT
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Well there seems no doubt that the plugs are wet. Have you done a compression test yet? Is the oil pressure sufficient and pumping up the tappets: Perhaps if they are sticky it would seem like poor timing... I too am inclined to think it is a timing issue, given it is only one bank that is at fault, or so it would appear. Would you think that over fuelling on that bank could manifest itself like so?? Do you have access to a CO² analyser to see what coming out the back? Are you absolutely sure that all the grounds are in place between engine/chassis/ECU |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 28, 2015 11:31:34 GMT
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Well there seems no doubt that the plugs are wet. Have you done a compression test yet? Is the oil pressure sufficient and pumping up the tappets: Perhaps if they are sticky it would seem like poor timing... I too am inclined to think it is a timing issue, given it is only one bank that is at fault, or so it would appear. Would you think that over fuelling on that bank could manifest itself like so?? Do you have access to a CO² analyser to see what coming out the back? Are you absolutely sure that all the grounds are in place between engine/chassis/ECU Compression test I hope to do tomorrow if I can either borrow or buy a tester. That should give me something more to go on. Oil pressure has not yet been checked. There is no gauge/light attached yet. I can confirm that the oil pan is drained with the engine running and fills up to level once the engine is stopped. This to me was proof that oil makes its way up. Also, the cam sensor that needed changing was wet with oil (it's on the offending bank) and even had some spill out during the change. So this to makes me believe oil gets where it should. Also the sound I know as valve chatter is absent on this engine. I think too much fuel in a cylinder might make it hard or impossible to combust. So in that respect I could consider stuck open injectors. But the fact that less air through the intake makes it run better I interpret as a contradiction to that fact. No I don't have access to much garage equipment. I'm working in an accident damage repair shop. So all tools are geared to that purpose. Fine for restoring a body, less so for diagnosing a car. That's why I bought a code reader and will most likely end up buying a compression tester as well. Also as exhaust is combined from two pipes into one single back box, it's no longer possible to read each bank 100% individually. I've gone over it a couple of times, but as far as I have been able to see, yes, all grounds are hooked up. There is a big one going from battery to the engine and back from the engine to the car body as well as a direct ground from the battery to the body. Added was a seperate ground from the gearbox to the body as well. Using the intake manifold as ground for the fuel pump during earlier tests also proved effective confirming good ground I guess. |
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May 28, 2015 12:34:46 GMT
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A few thoughts which might help.
It must be running on at least 5 cylinders or it would be horrendous and you would shut it off immediately. I don't believe it would be able to run on one bank.
So.....lets assume it IS actually running on all 6 cylinders.
If so why is it running apparently lean?
Injectors faulty? / dirty/ clogged up?
Faulty spark plugs.
Incorrect cam timing on that bank.
Other options.
Faulty spark plugs (again). Do NOT assume new plugs are ok, try swapping out the plugs from side to side and also fitting replacement ones.
What results do you get from both these options?
If the injectors were blocked/running lean I'm sure the ECU would be trying to compensate for this - which 'probably' would result in a fault code? The comment about doing an exhaust check is not necessarily valid unless your Lambda sensor is further down after the two banks join in the exhaust.
If it is you could fit new sensor bungs in the primary pipes before they join and fit wideband sensors linked to a laptop to see what each bank is doing. software is free on the net for this so not an expensive option.
Lastly, make the decision now to trailer the car to the show - it will cost you more but take all the stress out of your life and you can enjoy the show. Yes the car wont run properly, but sometimes life just does not work out how we want it to.
As the Jewish saying goes "Man makes plans & God laughs"
I'm desperately trying to get my car ready for a big show this weekend - I'm not sure if the alternator has failed (it's new) or not and I still have to fit windows on the sides, and I have not driven it more than about 15Km so far....the show is about 100Km away............... I'm pretty stressed out about it as well, so you are not alone!
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 28, 2015 13:30:49 GMT
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A few thoughts which might help. It must be running on at least 5 cylinders or it would be horrendous and you would shut it off immediately. I don't believe it would be able to run on one bank. So.....lets assume it IS actually running on all 6 cylinders. If so why is it running apparently lean? Injectors faulty? / dirty/ clogged up? Faulty spark plugs. Incorrect cam timing on that bank. Other options. Faulty spark plugs (again). Do NOT assume new plugs are ok, try swapping out the plugs from side to side and also fitting replacement ones. What results do you get from both these options? If the injectors were blocked/running lean I'm sure the ECU would be trying to compensate for this - which 'probably' would result in a fault code? The comment about doing an exhaust check is not necessarily valid unless your Lambda sensor is further down after the two banks join in the exhaust. If it is you could fit new sensor bungs in the primary pipes before they join and fit wideband sensors linked to a laptop to see what each bank is doing. software is free on the net for this so not an expensive option. Lastly, make the decision now to trailer the car to the show - it will cost you more but take all the stress out of your life and you can enjoy the show. Yes the car wont run properly, but sometimes life just does not work out how we want it to. As the Jewish saying goes "Man makes plans & God laughs" I'm desperately trying to get my car ready for a big show this weekend - I'm not sure if the alternator has failed (it's new) or not and I still have to fit windows on the sides, and I have not driven it more than about 15Km so far....the show is about 100Km away............... I'm pretty stressed out about it as well, so you are not alone! Thanks for that! And the moral support as well. I have decided to attend the show without the car. It's a weekend event and renting a trailer for that would be too costly. Also officially I'm not allowed to drive my combo and would need to find a driver willing to go as well. And it's a 400 km round trip so the risc is too great not to do it the legal way. Although some would beg to differ as the transit with a trailer looks like a solid combo. I'll attend and hunt for the final 2 parts. Maybe bring some stuff I'm trying to sell... Effectively I've altered my goal to: being able to enjoy it during our summer vacation and (yes a bit of a bad point) show the thing off when parked at my campsite and going to some shows or on day trips. In effect that gives me till July 31st to do whatever it takes. Truth be told it would be easier if I could at least fix the running issue, as that prevents MOT and alignment. With those done the car is legally mobile to work on in other places simplifying the work logistics. Would a HIGHer rev video be of help? I agree with what you are saying mostly. It may actually be running on all cylinders. But if it is running on all cylinders, why won't the exhaust heat up then? That to me is a sign of heat lacking so combustion lacking. That brings me back, as you also stated, to either injector trouble or timing. Once more, I'll try and conduct a compression test this week and tear into the intake etc. next week. - The plugs have been swapped around with spares, no change. The coil pack will be tomorrow for sake of thouroughness. - The ecu throws no more codes, though I'm not dismissing the possible injector troubles. They need verification however sh!tty a job that is. - The lambda's are 2 in front of the cats, 2 right behind the cats. Only at the back box, the tubes join. But any co meter is put in the tailpipe and that I thought would therefore Always show results based on what comes from both pipes. Before the exhaust was on, both were individually measurable. As far as I know, the sensors you talk about aren't cheap, even though the software may be. I'm sortof out of budget at the moment so have to work smart but cheap. I'm also taking into account spending big money on either a different engine or on replacing the timing on this one. Next week I'll know for sure. How true, currently life seems to be fighting me all the way. Both financially and mentally... But I'm not giving up, I keep looking forward to enjoying the car! |
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May 28, 2015 13:51:30 GMT
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A suggestion I was going to make, which somewhat now ties into what BPR has said, was to remove the leads fully from the 2nd bank and note any difference and vis-versa with bank 1. Although I guess you may have already tried this...
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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May 28, 2015 14:23:12 GMT
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A suggestion I was going to make, which somewhat now ties into what BPR has said, was to remove the leads fully from the 2nd bank and note any difference and vis-versa with bank 1. Although I guess you may have already tried this... Yep, did that with all leads off and also taking them off one at a time to hear which cylinders don't seem to work. Problem is that as rough as it runs, you don't notice any difference in running either with the leads attached or with them off. |
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May 28, 2015 15:42:49 GMT
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stupid left field question/suggestion but are those plugs gapped correctly? it looks huuuuge (from my experience)
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May 28, 2015 21:14:32 GMT
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Lack of heat might be lack of compression - cam timing out?
If it's letting the combustion out or not letting enough air in then there will not be a lot of heat developed.
It is looking like cam timing the more you describe it. Compression test will confirm it. Make sure compression is checked with ALL plugs out (& ign disabled!) and with throttle pedal fully depressed (throttle wide open) and that battery is fully charged.
Even testing 6 cylinders will flatten the battery enough to give lower readings by the time you are at the 5th & 6th cylinders so you may need to pop it on charge for a bit to re check.
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) and throwing things out of balance. 
