eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jul 17, 2017 13:41:04 GMT
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Well the update may be a bit late, but that is mainly because I was still pondering my findings. Let's go back to a few months ago when the car was just about ready for MOT. The fuel gauge and the temp gauge both went up to max fast. Tank always a little sooner than the temp as I guess there was enough fuel in the tank to get it at max even though the tank was far from brimmed. From then on I've been investigating this on and off culminating in a bit of real effort lately. This saw me do some tests. I found out that the voltage regulator on the car was probably damaged or not grounding well enough. I found that bench testing it is important to ground the VR correctly to get reasonably sensible readings as well. Somewhere in the process I did something that caused my flexible pcb to fry a ground path. So I replaced with a spare. Armed with that knowledge I replaced the VR in the car last saturday morning. I confirmed ground between the binnacle connector and the body of the car and I added a ground wire directly to be sure the unit was grounded. After putting it back to where it was safe to test I put power to it all. Everything that used to work seemed to still work. A good thing. Now with added bonus a fuel gauge creeping up only to just below the red empty square. Engine started and ran well with a little hesitation after a while of running. So maybe the fuel was indeed running out? I added 6 litres on the spot and operation returned to normal and gauge actually read a little above the red square. So far so good it would seem. Next I drove the car around a bit as the temp gauge did not do anything. It didn't move at all. Which when I thought about it was odd, as it used to go to max fast! Only as it was a worthless reading I never paid much attention to it anymore so I have no idea when it stopped going up. By now I had driven the car enough to be sure the gauge should have read something...but it still was dead. I had replaced the original black rimmed sender from the cosworth BOB engine with the white rimmed one matching the dash cluster's original one at the time of the build so I thought I'd change it over real fast. Well the coolant was definitely hot! At least hot enough to the skin. Proving a reading should have been attained. It helped a bit when I depressurised the system as I should have done before. Anyway without major burns or anything the sender was swapped and the engine again run. Again no movement on the gauge. So next step was to ground the signal wire as that should get the gauge moving to max. And low and behold it did!! So what does this tell me is what I've been contemplating. I could argue the gauge must be defective, as it will work only when grounded but not with the signal from the sensor maybe from having had to withstand too much power going through it for prolonged time. But is this true if or as it does indeed go to max when grounded? I could argue the signal is not reaching the gauge, but as I ground the wire the gauge responds so the signal to the cluster is coming in. This circuit is completed through the engine, so you could argue that ground from body to the engine is bad, but there's I believe two grounding points on the engine one of which is quickly checked and is firmly connected to the body and engine. On a clean surface as well. And There are no staring problems at all. Turn the key and evrything comes to life, hit start and it roars into life immediately. So to summarise: I suspect the circuit is in order, I know the VR now works, swapping sensors made no difference and the gauge itself is capable of getting the needle to max. I'm at a loss. I have to say SamJ was on a parts run and stopped by. He too is not all to sure of what is going on. And at least agrees with all of the above. As a test we tried to see what my spare gauge would do (ok, it was originally a fuel gauge, but it seems only the faces are different). So I hooked up the now spare VR from the cluster in my car, the sensor and the gauge. It immediately read high even before applying temperature to the sensor. This was most likely a broken VR which I later confirmed. The thin copper wire that surrounds the bimetal and is hooked to ground had burned away over a section so there was no contact to ground. Sam took the setup home with him to his variable power supply and tested it there. At 5v constant power, water temp of 85 degrees, the gauge now read 2/3rds up the scale. So confirming that sensor worked also. And also seemingly showing that the VR measured 1-8 volts may still be a bit high although there was now one gauge on it. Now finally I put 9 liters more fuel in the car to see what the fuel gauge would do and also thinking 6 liters isn't much anyway. So now the gauge reads between half and three quarters on the gauge. During traffic and driving it moves up and down over that range. Having had the car standing for a night, not starting it or anything it read three quarters full for at least a minute or two steady. Now if the float is not aligned right in the tank as it is an aftermarket replacement, I could see that a little sloshing around of the fuel would make the gauge read lower and higher while driving. But it stayed high when stationary for a day. Still it's not maxing out or anything so seems there is some result there. Also I'm not sure how full the tank now actually is! It did however start leaking and previously it seemed to only leak when filled to near capacity. Anyway, the tank has got to come off for sealing. So I'll use that excuse to read the fuel gauge with the sender on empty as well as on full to see what that does. Probably with both the current VR and possibly a solid state one. Now I'm contemplating taking out the binnacle again, and this time swapping the temp gauge over. Also I'm thinking of converting to a 5v solid state regulator as the electronics are dirt cheap. But I'm stuck there. I'm not really convinced it's the gauge given the findings above. Yet the circuit is so simple: ground through engine to sender/sensor, signal to gauge and gauge to regulated power. Which seems to all be in place. Also should I first do the fuel tank so I have that input to add to the above findings? Driving myself insane a bit going in circles! Why? Because it's keeping me from driving and enjoying the car. I want to be rid of tank dirt issues, I want to be able to rely on temp and fuel gauges as much as these old style are to be relied on... Now I'm always wondering and this prevents me from the long drives I had so longed for this year. September 3rd there's a gathering of sorts that I'd like to attend, showing the car in public for the first time after missing my other goals and summer holidays in between now and then... So still seeking advice on moving forward in the most suitable way. |
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Jul 17, 2017 13:54:24 GMT
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I'll add my suspicions to this for other people to ponder... 1) the VR in the car is too high, I think it should be 5v. 2) the high reading of the fuel gauge is likely caused by the too high VR - the higher the voltage through the gauge the higher the needle will go for a given sender position. 3) the temp gauge / sender combination that I tested reads high, I think at 85c the needle should be under the half way point of the gauge, but the sender was not matched to the gauge, but matched to the engine (I think that is right Alex?) 4) I suspect the temp gauge in the car to be faulty - we know the sender works (at least the one that was on my bench that had previously been in the car), the wiring between sender and gauge works as the gauge moves when shorted out, and the VR works (to an extent) as the fuel gauge moves around. At least thats how I see it? If it was me? take the gauge, VR, and temp sender out of the car and test them on the bench in the same way I did. I would replace the VR with a solid state one (a UA7805 and a couple of capacitors) just to be sure at the same time. If you can get it working on the bench you know that any issues when it goes back in the car must be something to do with the car wiring / ECU. Just my 2p mind  |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jul 17, 2017 14:32:14 GMT
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I'll add my suspicions to this for other people to ponder... 1) the VR in the car is too high, I think it should be 5v. 2) the high reading of the fuel gauge is likely caused by the too high VR - the higher the voltage through the gauge the higher the needle will go for a given sender position. 3) the temp gauge / sender combination that I tested reads high, I think at 85c the needle should be under the half way point of the gauge, but the sender was not matched to the gauge, but matched to the engine (I think that is right Alex?) 4) I suspect the temp gauge in the car to be faulty - we know the sender works (at least the one that was on my bench that had previously been in the car), the wiring between sender and gauge works as the gauge moves when shorted out, and the VR works (to an extent) as the fuel gauge moves around. At least thats how I see it? If it was me? take the gauge, VR, and temp sender out of the car and test them on the bench in the same way I did. I would replace the VR with a solid state one (a UA7805 and a couple of capacitors) just to be sure at the same time. If you can get it working on the bench you know that any issues when it goes back in the car must be something to do with the car wiring / ECU. Just my 2p mind Some notes: 1) I'm inclined to agree 2) I think best test is to move the float while one can see exactly where it is in its range. This possible means most with a solid state VR of 5V. Can the current VR reading be pretty good at one end of the scale but start deviating more and more higher up on the scale or would this be a linear thing? Like wherever the float sits it always reads the same amount too high? As I have trouble placing the reading of just over empty after adding the first 6 litres. 3) I agree the gauge should have been in the middle at best at that temp. But you tested the sender that according to the parts book etc IS matched to this gauge. Keep in mind this was originally a fuel gauge whick may affect things. Although internally there seems to be no difference between them. Otherwise I'll have to source a spare gauge. The sender now in the car is matched to the engine and ecu but may actually be a better (or worse) match. We could only check. 4) Could be but I'd not expect it to easily move it's full travel when grounded if it's actually broken. But now You've given me reason to test still. I'll have to see if your appraoch is best. My mind is fighting me on this subject. I have no fear on the bench it will work. You've sort of proven that already. Unfortunately I'm less well equipped for temp testing. |
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Jul 17, 2017 14:41:41 GMT
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The accuracy of the VR will vary over the float movement I think. It is supposed to be a constant voltage device, the current will change as the resistance of the sender changes. With a fixed 5v supply, the temp gauge pulled between 30 and 100 mA depending on the temperature of the sender.
I wouldn't trust that the fuel sender and temp sender have the same resistance range, without checking it is quite possible that the internals of the 2 gauges have small differences in terms of resistance. that would be difficult to see.
If you want to borrow a variable power supply and / or temperature probe let me know, I can drop them off after work, or you are welcome to bring the parts to mine and we can test together.
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spot
Part of things
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Jul 17, 2017 21:38:40 GMT
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Alex, (Samj)
The VR SHOULD ONLY supply 5v according to my (UK) manual - Not sure how that converts to metric.
Curiosity overcame me so I pulled my dash to confirm, and yes, my VR is grounded with a screw to the binnacle. That's of no consequence to you because it makes more sense going forward to build a, well grounded, SS VR.
A thought: Did you replace the float, or the whole fuel sender with a non OEM part? Is the resistance of the same range? Could this also be a bearing on the circuit?
Not a scooby why your temp gauge would look like a short circuit one moment, then go look open the next time.
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Just another thing to add in. Temp sender's run at defined resistances, so if you use a different sender with an oem gauge, it will read wrong due to the different specs, as the temp sender does in my car. If you are using an after market gauge the same rule applies, but you need to find what resistance the sender the gauge would have come with originally. I called one of my sender suppliers to chase down my issues and can't find a single sender with resistances at appropriate temps that's even remotely close to what I need for the oem gauge.  |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Just another thing to add in. Temp sender's run at defined resistances, so if you use a different sender with an oem gauge, it will read wrong due to the different specs, as the temp sender does in my car. If you are using an after market gauge the same rule applies, but you need to find what resistance the sender the gauge would have come with originally. I called one of my sender suppliers to chase down my issues and can't find a single sender with resistances at appropriate temps that's even remotely close to what I need for the oem gauge. I (and Sam) realise that. That is why I bought a new one that according to all documentation is the one that matches the dash gauge. I even looked past the fact that this may also misinform the ecu about actual temperature of the coolant meaning the fan circuit may be either early or late to engage. I assume late as the engine is quite hot before the fans kick in. I only once even saw them kick in, when the car had to idle for 45 minutes to an hour on the alignment. If I ever do figure this out, it may result in me using two senders for temp, one that feeds the ecu and one that feeds the gauge just so it's a match on all sides. |
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Just a thort, from what ive seen looking at aftermarket ECUs they don't like to share inputs with guages, if there supposed to have seprate a senders then making them share could upset one of the other.
Dan
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Alex, (Samj) The VR SHOULD ONLY supply 5v according to my (UK) manual - Not sure how that converts to metric. Curiosity overcame me so I pulled my dash to confirm, and yes, my VR is grounded with a screw to the binnacle. That's of no consequence to you because it makes more sense going forward to build a, well grounded, SS VR. A thought: Did you replace the float, or the whole fuel sender with a non OEM part? Is the resistance of the same range? Could this also be a bearing on the circuit? Not a scooby why your temp gauge would look like a short circuit one moment, then go look open the next time. Look who's still alive! ;-) I'm sort of curious which manual you have as both my haynes and my ford documentation show nothing about voltages when the dash/regulator circuit is concerned. Yes, the VR is grounded to the flexible pcb by one screw holding it down onto a contact patch on a solid piece of the plastic cover. But either that didn't ground well enough or my VR's are/were end of life. I am very glad that you can confirm the 5V theory. This means I'm pretty sure that it, though now working for sure, is still giving off too much voltage. I tend to measure between 0-8 or 9 volts. The alternating reading makes it hard. Yes the complete fuel sender was exchanged. It's a one piece item so it doesn't even seem possible to just replace one or the other. But again it is a direct replacement for the car so should be ok. But I have both so I can measure bothe to compare. After pondering some more last night I now tend to agree with what seems to have become a common thought: replace with a solid state VR. I'll post a seperate thing about that in a moment. I'm also inclined to fully set up a bench test with both gauges and both senders on a 5v source. To see how it all reads. To seperate this bit a little from the above... I had the house full of young girls last night as my 13 year old had over some friends for a sleepover. Even though I still have to work for the next few weeks. To keep my sanity I took my wife on a walk to the granada as the sun was out and it was 24 degrees. The fuel leak had stopped as the excess had drained to the floor given the dried puddle shape still visible on the floor. It does seem to only have been a little over, not by litres so that's nice. Petrol is way too expensive to just waste. So to "waste" some more in a more fun way we took the car for a 40 minute drive around the neigbourhood. I could see how the fuel gauge would react, I could see if at some point the temp gauge would register or the cooling fans would kick in sooner now the original temp sender is back in. So several good reasons for a nice drive. While underway I decided I'd try the sports setting. I hadn't really done that before as even in the eco setting it pulls like a maniac. But boy does that change the car! It's funny but it feels quicker off the line as well as it pulling about a 1000 extra rpms before shifts. Quite impressive and boy oh boy it takes no effort at all to exceed the speed limit. As I was in 50-70km/h zones that meant only short stints of acceleration. But boy were they fun. I was chuckling and grinning and I even alledgedly threw out something about crackling manhoods in excitement (there's no proof so don't ask for any, ahum) that makes absolutely no sense... Also funny, as much as I sometimes fear this engine blowing up on me as I feel it sounds a bit loudish from the timing gear area which is a common weak point on these engines, it just goes and goes and goes when hammered. It almost maxes out the rev counter (but that reads slightly high as a result of a guess on the capacitor size to make it actually work). Still fun to watch happen! And so bloody fast. Can you imagine with a 3.64 diff back in it again how stupidly quick the acceleration would be again?! So that lifted spirits a bit. I've decided to try and pull the fuel tank this week and buy the sealant for it. With that out of the car I will also remove the cluster (car is imobilised anyway) and see if I can't get this gauge stuff behind me. Possibly asking Sam for his help as he is better equipped for this than I am. These points should help restore the confidence in the car as to be honest I feel I may be talking it down a bit... The car always starts, it runs like a bat out of hell (suitable sound track as well) and apart from a clogged filter has never let me down! These gauge things are just a nuisance as it means I have no way of verifying engine temp or fuel status, which is usefull. The solution to the gauges can't be too difficult in all reality. It's just a slow process as it's not my best area and I'm not best equipped for researching this. I'll now build a VR, I'll do the range tests and if need be we will correct the signals to match the gauges better. The tank issue is not hard just inconvenient. But I'm now pretty motivated to get this out of the way. After that there's only one issue to look into and I think that would conclude shakedown. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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On building a VR:
I've looked at schematics and it is easily built. Only thing is that different schematics use different capacitors. I read about 10uf, 100uf and 0.33uf so how to decide which to use?
Also I see the capacitors referred to as 10uf 35V for instance, but when I lookup these in my local electronics shop I do not find these, or if I do they have an odd round bulbous shape. I find 63Vdc up to even 300+ Vdc in the more regular barrel shape. Does it really matter, as long as its over the 15V that a car battery should never ever even put out?
And a final question on those UA7805 thngies: I was thinking of using the original VR housing as a heat sink, but I seem to read that on the IC the flat piece with the hole in it is actually the same as the OUTPUT pin. On the original VR the housing is the ground so using that as a heatsink I would have to add a barrier and can't put a metal screw through. Is this correct?
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Just a thort, from what ive seen looking at aftermarket ECUs they don't like to share inputs with guages, if there supposed to have seprate a senders then making them share could upset one of the other. Dan Thanks for that. Current setup is as far as I know factory. The sender feeds the standard ford ecu which has an output for the temp gauge. This output is used at the moment. Only thing I did was change the sender that matched the ecu for the one that matched the dash (supposedly). So inadvertantly I may have been feeding the ecu the wrong data. But the gauge still should have read. Now the right sender is in again. The other one was bench tested. But this has made me realise that I now have two options: - put in a dedicated sender for the temp gauge in one of the coolant hoses. - compare the two senders and see if the signal from the original engine one can be modified to work with the gauge as well. Thus having it connect to the original wire on the ecu and via a modified signal wire to the gauge as well. Tests should help us out. |
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On building a VR: I've looked at schematics and it is easily built. Only thing is that different schematics use different capacitors. I read about 10uf, 100uf and 0.33uf so how to decide which to use? Also I see the capacitors referred to as 10uf 35V for instance, but when I lookup these in my local electronics shop I do not find these, or if I do they have an odd round bulbous shape. I find 63Vdc up to even 300+ Vdc in the more regular barrel shape. Does it really matter, as long as its over the 15V that a car battery should never ever even put out? And a final question on those UA7805 thngies: I was thinking of using the original VR housing as a heat sink, but I seem to read that on the IC the flat piece with the hole in it is actually the same as the OUTPUT pin. On the original VR the housing is the ground so using that as a heatsink I would have to add a barrier and can't put a metal screw through. Is this correct? You don't NEED the capacitors, the electronics you are powering aren't sensitive to noise / spikes. I would go with a 0.33 uF between the input and ground, and a 0.1 uF between output and ground. The small tantalum radial caps will be fine, you don't need the high voltage ones. On the UA7805 / LM7805 the back plate is connected to the common (ground) pin, so no problem connecting it to a grounded heatsink. One option to test the ECU issue, can you pull the binnacle forward and have the car running? If so, get the car warm, stop the engine but leave the power to the gauges on, and then use a piece of wire to go from the gauge directly to the temp sender, that way you will bypass the ECU and any influence it might have on the gauge. Oh and remind me next time I see you to bring you my timing light, that way you can check how different the rev counter actually reads to the engine, would be nice to see if we can fix that somehow. |
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'Why? Because it's keeping me from driving and enjoying the car. I want to be rid of tank dirt issues, I want to be able to rely on temp and fuel gauges as much as these old style are to be relied on... Now I'm always wondering and this prevents me from the long drives I had so longed for this year.'
Alex - Your persistence in getting this right is commendable, most owners would just get in the car and want to drive it after a lengthy restoration - I know it's frustrating - but keep at it and you will get there - apologies I can't help / advise much on the electrical issues - Chris
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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On building a VR: I've looked at schematics and it is easily built. Only thing is that different schematics use different capacitors. I read about 10uf, 100uf and 0.33uf so how to decide which to use? Also I see the capacitors referred to as 10uf 35V for instance, but when I lookup these in my local electronics shop I do not find these, or if I do they have an odd round bulbous shape. I find 63Vdc up to even 300+ Vdc in the more regular barrel shape. Does it really matter, as long as its over the 15V that a car battery should never ever even put out? And a final question on those UA7805 thngies: I was thinking of using the original VR housing as a heat sink, but I seem to read that on the IC the flat piece with the hole in it is actually the same as the OUTPUT pin. On the original VR the housing is the ground so using that as a heatsink I would have to add a barrier and can't put a metal screw through. Is this correct? You don't NEED the capacitors, the electronics you are powering aren't sensitive to noise / spikes. I would go with a 0.33 uF between the input and ground, and a 0.1 uF between output and ground. The small tantalum radial caps will be fine, you don't need the high voltage ones. On the UA7805 / LM7805 the back plate is connected to the common (ground) pin, so no problem connecting it to a grounded heatsink. One option to test the ECU issue, can you pull the binnacle forward and have the car running? If so, get the car warm, stop the engine but leave the power to the gauges on, and then use a piece of wire to go from the gauge directly to the temp sender, that way you will bypass the ECU and any influence it might have on the gauge. Oh and remind me next time I see you to bring you my timing light, that way you can check how different the rev counter actually reads to the engine, would be nice to see if we can fix that somehow. Thanks, I'll get the stuff needed from brigatti. Good to see the ground is also the plate part of the IC. Some sites claimed differently (even though all talked about the 7805). I'll disconnect the ecu feed to the cluster too. Then the "spare" wire we used the other day is a direct link to the gauge signal so I can test that without interference from the ecu. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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'Why? Because it's keeping me from driving and enjoying the car. I want to be rid of tank dirt issues, I want to be able to rely on temp and fuel gauges as much as these old style are to be relied on... Now I'm always wondering and this prevents me from the long drives I had so longed for this year.' Alex - Your persistence in getting this right is commendable, most owners would just get in the car and want to drive it after a lengthy restoration - I know it's frustrating - but keep at it and you will get there - apologies I can't help / advise much on the electrical issues - Chris Thank you, coming from someone with insanely high standards given the work you show that means a lot. Admittedly I do drive the car as well, but my focus now is mainly on fixing the issues that shakedown has thrown at me. Some are easily fixed, others are more of a head scratcher. Driving the car around a little here and there helps motivation. The car is fun no doubt, but I just want it all to be right! I do miss not having been able to visit a show with my son or even take the car for a long drive. I count myself lucky to have the support of this forum and the friends I've made. So far no problem has been unsurmountable. But honestly it does get annoying sometimes. But in the end I also realise that even taking off the fuel tank for a third time or removing the cluster for the 16th time, fixing these issues is also what I draw a lot of satisfaction from. I simply like it. Wielding the spanners being hands-on on the car feels great! And the good thing is that I can drive it too. It won't fall apart on me, but with these little things fixed I'd feel even better. |
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The datasheet for the TI branded UA7805 definitely shows the plate as being the common connection www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ua78.pdfJust thinking that taking the ECU out of the circuit at least eliminates that as the problem. |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jul 18, 2017 10:15:21 GMT
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Ordered the parts for the VR (with spares).
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jul 18, 2017 18:29:06 GMT
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Just did some tests.
First I prepared the dash for work. Next I ran the car up to temp, oh what a punishment...
With the car warmed up I shut it down.
I still had no gauge. Next I hooked the spare gauge to the posts of the original one. Ig the gauge was faulty I now would have expected a reading, but I got none.
Then I unhooked the ECU feed. This meant the gauge now had no feed. So under the bonnet I switched the signal wire on the sender to the original one. This should have resulted in a reading on the gauge but it didnt. Repeated this with the spare gauge but also no reading.
Next I grounded the signal wire. Both gauges climb to max.
Next I simplified the circuit by hooking the gauge power directly to the battery and the signal to the signal post. This also resulted in the gauge going to max.
I then also verified that the ecu wire gives a signal. It seems to be a low voltage signal, but there's one. And when using this wire to the gauge on 5v there's no movement. On 12v it maxes out (if I let it which I didn't to protect the gauge(s)). Tried the same with the original signal wire on the sender and same behaviour.
This all means I still don't get why there's no reading. I do measure voltage between 0-8 on the posts.
One thing to take into account: for these tests the sender taht was in the engine was the one matched to the ecu, so in theory this could be such a bad mismatch that the gauge does not read. So I'm thinking I need to redo these tests soon with the other sender in. Preferably when I have my solid state VR also as I can then simulate the full circuit right there under the bonnet.
If that works and the custer still won't, I may just isolate the temp gauge from the cluster pcb and hook it up directly to the sender and the VR. That should then also work. At least I don't think the gauge itself is faulty anymore as both respond the same.
Anyone want to chime in again??
Anyway, as the engine had run a bit without the ecu temp connected as it was directly hooked to the gauge I switched it back over. At that time I also could confirm the ecu controls the fan circuit. First one fan was on (you hardly notice this and a while later for a short period of time the second fan kicked in as well. So the good thing is that the fans definitely (still) work!! This means even without a temp gauge the chances of really overheating are slim.
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Jul 19, 2017 14:58:33 GMT
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please change the wheels,
this thing would look awesome on a set of retro wheels.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Jul 19, 2017 16:39:25 GMT
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These are decades old...
So what would you consider retro??
But I've said before: wheels are the hardest thing to choose. Also a pretty expensive thing to change... and most retro wheels are way too common on granada's... I like them so they'll stay until I find something nicer! Which may be never...
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