MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,791 
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May 15, 2012 15:10:41 GMT
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I'm looking at uprating the brakes on the Vitesse (I know, not before time  ) and I'm looking at various options, but all need to be contained within the 13" wheels I'm running.(Which limits these options massively) Anyways, does anyone know if there are any appreciable difference between the M16 2 pot caliper as fitted to capri's etc and the Type 16 as fitted to Triumphs ?? I can't see any, bt I'm only going by pictures atm. Reason being I want to fit vented discs, and whilst I can easily find spacer kits for the M16 calipers I have yet to find any listed for the Trumph Type 16  I'm also on the look out for a cheap alternative for 4 pot calipers but am struggling. I know I could get a set of Ali Willwoods for around £300 but that's about £250 more than I have to spend! |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Brake calipersDez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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May 15, 2012 15:22:14 GMT
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one I have used in the past, and am using again as an upgrade on both my victor and the missus 100e is sierra calipers. they're single piston slider type, but run a vented disc and fit within a 13" wheel. oh, and all associated parts are cheap as hell- discs are 10 quid a pair for brembos, pads under a tenner and not much more for fancy compounds, and big red sell rebuild kits for around £20 for a pair of calipers meaning you can refurb scrap yard calipers on the cheap. plus parts are availalbe everywhere quickly and cheaply, if you have any issues in the future or need to replace stuff as it wears out. I figured if they're factory rated for stopping a fully laden sierra estate, theyll be quite an upgrade for something weighing half as much.
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Last Edit: May 15, 2012 15:23:34 GMT by Dez
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May 15, 2012 15:27:53 GMT
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I was just about to say similar to what Dez has said.
What are the uprights like on the Vitesse?
TrackerJack on the Dolly forum makes a near enough bolt on upgrade kit to use Golf GTI vented discs and Sierra calipers. I'm not sure how similar the two are though.
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,791
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May 15, 2012 16:03:29 GMT
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Yeah, I hear what you're saying about the Sierra brakes Dez, but I feel it would be a backwards step as the Vitesse already has 2 piston calipers, but operating on solid discs
I know they're a proven upgrade on the Dollys, but there are absolutely no common components between the Dolly and small chassis Triumphs. I can't remember off hand hpw the discs are mounted on Dolomite hubs, but they're 'inboard' of the hubs on the Vitesse.
I've established that Capri 2.8i discs are near enough the correct dimensions to fit both the hub (with redrilling) and stay inside a 13" wheel, but obviuosly that won't work with my original calipers which is why I want to space them out.
The other option is Princess calipers, but they are enormously heavy and now come with an old school Ford 'tax' as they bolt straight on escort uprights. ( they also bolt straight on the Vitesse/GT6 uprights and I had them on the Sprintfire which also had GT6 uprights and discs fitted)
I've even looked at MG Metro Turbo calipers as they're 4 pot, but the total surface area of the pistons is actually less than the Type 16's, so again, that would be a backwards step.
Hence why I'm looking to just rebuild and space out my originals and change to vented discs.
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May 15, 2012 21:49:07 GMT
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16P, 16PB and M16 calipers are functionally the same and use the same spacer kits. Nice rigid caliper. Pads for M16 can be used in the 16P but usually need the pin holes drilling out a bit.
For everyday use Mintex 1144 pads are fairly reasonably priced and have nice bite. Can be faded if you are a hooligan though..... (I'm sure they'd be absolutely fine with vented discs) 1155s are more fade resistant but a bit less bite from cold. DS2500 seem to be fade proof (pad fade anyway) as tested in the Alps (twice) and on the 'ring (one lap was enough!). The discs went blue but no fade. Flippin' expensive though.
The usual route to vented discs is Capri 2.8 and some of the Triumph specialists actually sell kits including redrilled discs and spacers. This does require some messing about with spacers under steering arms to stop them rubbing in the track-rod ends on many cars. There is also a Citroen one (I think) which has a slightly flatter bell and may work better.
The Princess caliper does NOT fit a proper Vitesse/GT6 vertical link unless you use the (fairly rare) early Herald caliper carrier. Princess caliper does fit the Spitfire/later Herald vertical link and HiSpec do some quite nice alloy Princess caliper copies which are obviously lighter and don't have the dual piping issues.
Cheers
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,791
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May 16, 2012 13:18:54 GMT
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16P, 16PB and M16 calipers are functionally the same and use the same spacer kits. Nice rigid caliper. Pads for M16 can be used in the 16P but usually need the pin holes drilling out a bit. Nick Thanks. That's exacly the confirmation I needed  As for the Uprights, I'm obviously not remembering correctly what I had on there, it's been a while, but I do know I definately had GT6 Discs and Princess 4 pot calipers. Bit overkill on a Spitfire tbh as it locked the front end up very easily but when it gripped it near stood the damned thing on it's nose! |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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2 pistons isn't necessarily better than 1, I wouldn't consider it a backward step to go from an old fashioned 2 pot to a modern single pot at all, chances are the single pot will be a much better brake due to the extra years of development that have gone into it. Dez's reasoning about them being able to stop a much heavier car is very true.
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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May 19, 2012 12:57:38 GMT
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If you are going to fit spaced M16s mate i would fit 2.8i granada Mk2 M16bs bigger pad, same fitting, already spaced for veted dics and fit inside a 13inch rim (well they do on a ford) but harder to find unless you know a banger racer? and the pistons are the same as M/P16 so no master mods needed if replcing those 2 calipers. here's a very breif crappy page about em cortinacentral.bravehost.com/Brakes.html |
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R.I.P photobucket
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,832
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May 19, 2012 18:42:22 GMT
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If you are going to fit spaced M16s mate I would fit 2.8i granada Mk2 M16bs bigger pad, same fitting, already spaced for veted dics and fit inside a 13inch rim (well they do on a ford) but harder to find unless you know a banger racer? and the pistons are the same as M/P16 so no master mods needed if replcing those 2 calipers. here's a very breif crappy page about em cortinacentral.bravehost.com/Brakes.htmlWell done Rob, spot on for a cheap option, P16 is an imperial fixture caliper, M16 is the metric equivalent, metric pipe fittings ect and bolts, to retro fit on a ford you used to use a Landrover shouldered caliper bolt, There are several myths about brakes, swapping vented discs for the same size solid discs will not improve braking only negate the risk of brake fade, you need to increase the swept area of disc and/or pad to get an improvement, Servos will not improve your brakes!!!!! all they do is reduce pedal pressure and decrease feel of the pedal, the best and most cost efficient method of improving the brakes is fit New discs and a good quality performance pad such as EBC green stuff, any rust on discs cause glazing of the pads, the ferrous oxide will transfer onto the pad surface and cause the pad and disc to glaze, The beauty of bigger discs is you increase the leverage against the wheel which in turn needs less pedal pressure to slow the car, which in turn gives more feel to the brakes. |
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style.
Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,791
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2 pistons isn't necessarily better than 1, I wouldn't consider it a backward step to go from an old fashioned 2 pot to a modern single pot at all, chances are the single pot will be a much better brake due to the extra years of development that have gone into it. Dez's reasoning about them being able to stop a much heavier car is very true. True enough, but according to my brief research and calculations, the Type 16 calipers have a piston surface area of 4576mm 2 and the Sierra ones have a total of just 2282mm 2 which WILL lead to a loss of brake efficiency/more more effort needed on brake pedal/loss of hydraulic advantage without changing the master cylinder (which woud upset the balance to the rears) and is therefore a backwards step. I well aware that changing to vented discs alone will not improve brake performance, but they will reduce brake fade, which has to be a good thing. I'm looking to possibly gain more effort either through more pressure being applied (either 4 pot or larger 2 pot of higher S/A than standard) or through more friction, by using better pads. Either method will result in more heat generated and thus my desire to change to vented discs. Thanks all for the suggestions |
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May 21, 2012 10:06:31 GMT
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When you worked out the piston area for the single pot calliper, did you multiply the result by two? On the plus side the calliper will be lighter and give more wheel clearance.
IIRC its what PPC fitted to their small block V8 Crapi, so it should stop your old 'Rumph.
If you still don't fancy that then Rally Design do a Wilwood vented M16 replacement 4 pot for £99 each...
Final option - get down to your local breakers with your verniers and have a mooch round 'til you find summat you can make fit.
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Koos
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,791
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May 21, 2012 10:32:59 GMT
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Err, no I didn't, cos there's only one piston in the caliper. Even if I did, it sill works out marginally smaller than the original.
I'm aware of the Wilwood Alloy ones, which are very appealing, but they're about £150 more than I want/can spend on the whole conversion. I see no point in changing my P16's for M16's for no gain other than a mismatch of metric and imperial fittings which will prove a PITA when sorting hoses.
I think I'll be going down the Capri 2.8i discs and spaced out P16 caliper route to keep things simple/cheap
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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May 21, 2012 10:39:16 GMT
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When calculating for a sliding caliper you need to multiply the piston area by two. It's because the brake pressure is pressing on the back surface of the cylinder as well as the back of the piston, which pulls the opposing pad against the disc with the same force as if there was a piston on the other side. It all comes down to equal and opposite forces in the end.
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,791
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May 21, 2012 10:56:14 GMT
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Yes, that is true, and I negated to do so!  Either way, there's nothng to be gained from the Sierra caliper over the Triumph, other than it would already be spaced for vented discs, but as they have metric fittings, I'd need to have hoses made to suit which will add another £50 ish to the job. And you'll have to work damned hard to convince me that a single piston sliding caliper as as efficient as a twin opposed piston caliper, so I think I'll just space out my originals. Thanks again for all the suggestions tho, I've spent most of the weekend considering this! |
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) and I'm looking at various options, but all need to be contained within the 13" wheels I'm running.(Which limits these options massively)
Either way, there's nothng to be gained from the Sierra caliper over the Triumph, other than it would already be spaced for vented discs, but as they have metric fittings, I'd need to have hoses made to suit which will add another £50 ish to the job. And you'll have to work damned hard to convince me that a single piston sliding caliper as as efficient as a twin opposed piston caliper, so I think I'll just space out my originals.