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and part time petrol heads? I have been far to busy to get the factoids for this, just what I have seen on news. Now It may be a bit 'neggy' for Retro Rides, but this may affect us in a big way. just wondering if anyone has any facts, or constructive worries. Now 'Green' wise, I like to think I do my bit, because i'm not a fan of waste, so I swich off lights and electricals and gas stuff when not in use. cycle and walk where I can cos its quicker too. Plus try my bit at buying green; veg, and lesser packaged goods, local produce if i can afford it/be assed/where poss, then active recycling of obvious stuff rather than general landfill. use a plane once every two years on average. So my point; the governments are likely gonna tax 4x4's etc etc, great! chelsea tracters, pimp mobiles etc etc, hate em as you will, if you do, but all the owners and drivers are doing is exercising their motoring freedom as we are, even some and their kids are lazy. Seems our govenment has been looking for ways to clobber us since the fuel protests, and this IMO could be it. show me the public/school transport investment! I know my route to work loads busier when school is on, and what about the waiting competing TEN busses clogging up traffic outside work??? I worry governments don't see the big picture. I may only do 3-6k miles in my V8 Sierra when it gets road worthy, are we likely to get hit by over inflated tax and dramatically increased fuel, along with £50 MOT's, toll roads, and parking costs near everywhere. Should we be worried, feel threatened? Rant over, just thought this may hit us eventually....
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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I worry governments don't see the big picture. That's just it though, they DO! Their big picture is filled with pound signs.
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Its gonna hit us OK and I think we have to be ready to accept that the cost of motoring, even retro motoring, is gonna rise. Lets face it we all love cars and probably use our cars more than is absolutely necessary.
What we have to be on our guard for however is massive across-the board tax rises on cars, without any alternatives being touted. Your comment about the buses is spot-on, no-one manages bus services 'overall', the bus companies are left to do it themselves with the results that you mention, and the traveller is the one who loses out. Exactly the same story applies to trains. (we can lay the blame squarely at the door of tory deregulation/privatisation for that, however Labour have completely failed to make even the slightest impact on the problem since they took power). Thus outside of London, the UK has one of the shonkiest, most disjointed public transport systems anywhere in the developed world. Someone needs to get hold of it and start shaking it up, cutting fares, increasing capacity and managing the COMPLETE service available to the public, to give people an alternative to car use. However since this Stern report there seems to be lots of huffing and puffing about tax increases but very little about re-organising the PT network, which is unsurprising and thoroughly depressing.
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Last Edit: Oct 30, 2006 9:22:32 GMT by Mr_Bo11ox
1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Mr_Bollox - Nail + Head, etc. etc. At least you get to live in France - I am a firm believer in regularly moving house so as to never loose the "grass is greener" feeling
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Not sure if its just Chelsea tractors they're after or anything with big cubes. I heard it was just in a certain area (as a test) and if you`ve got off street parking then fine, if you havent its £700 a year to park outside your house, wont really affect the millionaires but the old bloke whos just bought himself a big old Merc cos hes always wanted one will probably have to get rid of it. So another way of getting dough off people that doesnt make sense really, if they're that bothered about "gas guzzlers" I don't know why they don't just make it illegal to sell them here as of 2008 or something, that way the majority of them will die off in time but people who have just bought one can run it without being picked on, eventually the only ones left will be the old Jags, Yanks, V6 Capris and Sierras etc that enthusiasts maintain and they are hardly likely to make much of an impact due to there low numbers and in most cases little usage. Problem solved and no-one gets scalped, but I suppose thats too easy and fair.
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I know what you mean. I simpliufy what is a complex arguement about costs of recycle and remanufacture down into a simple analogy: my 7 litre Oldsmobile is an environmentally fierndly car... Average car lasts 7 - 9 years in the UK and takes 20 years to recover its environmental impact on manufacture vs reduced running emissions. So my 40 year old Oldsmobile is 4 "phases" of manufacture AND recyling saved... plus it hardly goes anywhere and is in "eco proffit" anyway by some 20 years.
None of this means a damn of course.
Life will get harder and we willhave to get more inventive. Or get a better organised political voice.
Kev Rooney tried to organise a umbrella organisation like the FBHVC but for ALL modified vehicles, but was met with such appethy he's given up on the idea. So he's still working on fighting for our rights, but within the confines of the NSRA. So he's fighting for the rights of RWD pre-1972 modified vehicles.
I know how hard it is to "mobilise" people, I've tried it before and its just not the British way of doing things, people would rather tell you "it'll never happen". And then it does. And they say "we could never have stopped it anyway". Which is true with that attitude.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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and BTW a V6 Mondeo counts as a "gas guzzler" not just 4x4s and Jags.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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I'm sick of the motorist being painted as the bad guy. What about the pollution caused by industry? Also I read somewhere recently (can't remember where) that of the pollution caused by a vehicle, 55% comes from it's manufacture, and 40% comes from it's destruction. So limiting the amount we can use our cars will have virtually no effect. If they really wanted to do something about green issues then they'd slap a hefty tax on new cars and a hefty tax on the cost of scrapping a car, but that won't please the SMMT who, in reality, decide the private transport policies in this country. The motorist is being targetted once again to avoid hurting the government's big business buddies' profit margins.
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1953 Minor (Long term project) PT Cruiser
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I was reading an book about car design last night and it reckoned that based on an average 10-yr lifespan of a car, that only 10% of the total energy consumed by the car, would go on its manufacture. The other 90% would be the fuel used to power it for 10 years. On this basis, our retro motors are in fact really bad for the environment and we oughta replace them with recyclable, cat-equipped moderns. This 10/90% rule is really hard to quantify of course but if this turned out to be true its a bit of a worry.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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I was reading an book about car design last night and it reckoned that based on an average 10-yr lifespan of a car, that only 10% of the total energy consumed by the car, would go on its manufacture. The other 90% would be the fuel used to power it for 10 years. On this basis, our retro motors are in fact really bad for the environment and we oughta replace them with recyclable, cat-equipped moderns. This 10/90% rule is really hard to quantify of course but if this turned out to be true its a bit of a worry. www.ilea.org/lcas/macleanlave1998.htmlearthtrends.wri.org/text/climate-atmosphere/feature-53.htmlI don't know how this relates in comparison to other pollution sources - those that are harder to tax.
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Shocking piece Darren! Edited: and MR Bo11ox We're all pretty much on the same side then, some great points from all too. Does this mean that: A. prices of decent smaller engined cars will go up and we will all be trying to recreate the masterpice Kadett like the one CR500Dom has built? I'm already salivating over the idea. B. Our big engine kicks will be undertaken on tracks only - via trailer- on the back of a 1.4 tow car. or will this become taxable/slightly illeagal too? I'm so close to ditching Great Britain in the next 18 months, but wondering if theres much escape these days, will start investigating though...
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Hmm, that (from Darren W) tends to corroberate the 10%/90% rule I would say.
Having said that the advantage of getting a new car every ten years would be that the new car would be less polluting in terms of CO, Nitrogen Oxides, hydrocarbons and PM, and it would be more recyclable. The CO2 output of the new car would be much the same, as CO2 output is a direct function of how much juice is burned, and fuel consumption now is generally quite similar to what it was 20 years ago, save for a few odd cases like the Toyota Prius etc. So swapping your old car for new would not have a massive effect on your 'carbon footprint' although you would be emitting less of other pollutants.
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Last Edit: Oct 30, 2006 9:46:59 GMT by Mr_Bo11ox
1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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I've read figures much higher than 10%. Even in a Transport2000 propaganda piece from 10 years ago they were talking numbers more like those quoted above (55% / 40%) although I don;t recall the exact numbers, it only left less than 50% for running "costs". I suppose it depends on how you cook up your numbers.
City of Leicester (UK's first "Environment City" and one of the first "Nuclear Free Zones" in the 80s) publiched figures for Leicester City polution - again about 10 years ago - and the pie was broken down something like:
#1 - Domestic heating #2 - electricity generation #3 - industrial production #4 - traffic #5 - domestic "other" #6 - agriculture
note that the CITY of leicester won't have a lot of agriculture in its boundaries, and they included public and private transport together as "traffic". There is no element of "air traffic" either as there is no airport in Leicester City boundaries.
Other cities, countiers and regions may have different splits.
In the state of California there is more CO2 emission from BARBEQUES than motor cars (again this figure is some years old)
A mate of mine is employed in transport/traffic environment research. They were commissioned by Joh nPrescott to produce research to show how much emissions would be saved if private cars were basically banned and everyone went by public transport in the cities. They picked a certain major UK city they had already done a lot of traffic flow modelling on and could not make the numbers stack up in favour of public transport. In the end they had to feed in "assumptions" to the model that every bus journey was at 100% occupancy on a 93 seater, and that every replaced car journey was single occupant in a 5+ year old car, and that all busses used would be brand new ultralow emission vehicles... And still it came out pretty poor. The study was burried by the DfTER.
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Last Edit: Oct 30, 2006 9:48:35 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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What really narks me is 2 things,.. 1 that Atomic energy is not classes as a cleaner energy than Carbon powered... and that people confuse air pollution with Co2 emmisions... Cars don't emit much Co2 .. but they do emit a lot of Carbon Monoxide, Hydro Carbons and Nitrogen Oxides.
So sure you can say that cars don't produce much Carbon Dioxide,.. but thats not the problem with cars. People on all sides wilfully ignoring facts.
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theres nothing in that pie for disposal or recycling.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Thats bull, most of the pollution from a car is prodiced during manufacture and scrapping, so the longer an old car stays on the road the better! Theres an ever decreasing number of older cars on the road anyway due to nautural wastage so whats the big deal?... aah i forgot wer'e easy targets and are seen as cash cows, thatll be it then.
Get a tax exempt car like me, cant touch you with road tax then!
Another big enviromental scanadal is cars without MOT or tax being classed as hazardous waste. That project cortina in your garage or escort thats being stripped for spares could soon be in the same category as asbestos and attract a hefty bill to dispose of plus fine for keeping it illegally.
Our way of life is under attack people, time to fight for our right!
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1987 Maestro 1.6 HL perkins diesel conversion 1986 Audi 100 Avant 1800cc on LPG 1979 Allegro Series 2 special 4 door 1500cc with vynil roof. IN BITS. HERITAGE ISSUES.
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Get a tax exempt car like me, cant touch you with road tax then! Did you not spot the proposal to limit the use of tax exempt cars to "public displays and parades previously sanctioned by the appropriate local authorities and under the escort or supervision of the police only on a route previously defined by local authorities in agreement with the local police" ? Was about 18 months ago. Got defeated, this time.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Oct 30, 2006 10:01:53 GMT
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WTF??? NO I DIDNT BLOODY SPOT THAT!!!! what a bunch of nazi jobsworth COCKMASTERS! what is wrong with them? why are they picking on us so much? theres no way this could ever get though... is there??
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Last Edit: Oct 30, 2006 10:02:40 GMT by Lankytim
1987 Maestro 1.6 HL perkins diesel conversion 1986 Audi 100 Avant 1800cc on LPG 1979 Allegro Series 2 special 4 door 1500cc with vynil roof. IN BITS. HERITAGE ISSUES.
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Oct 30, 2006 10:04:40 GMT
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Get a tax exempt car like me, cant touch you with road tax then! For now... My Golf was due to be tax-exempt in two years time. Since they stopped the rolling 25-year exemption, it'll now never happen. They changed the rules once, there's nowt to stop them doing it again, especially if it's in favour of a bit more revenue and they can seemingly justify it on environmental grounds
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Last Edit: Oct 30, 2006 10:11:38 GMT by DarrenW
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