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Mar 16, 2012 12:05:45 GMT
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Hi Everyone,
Hopefully someone can provide a bit of guidance. I recently picked up a cheap 1275 A+ engine from an 1988 MG Metro to go in my dads 1961 Mk1 Mini 850 which has had constant running problems in the last year. I knew some work may be needed to get it fit, have a few questions though.
I will have to use the Mk1 gearbox and driveshefts apparently?
Clutch - mini is Hydraulic metro is cable. I have been searching but the problem with mini's is there is so much info its impossible to find that which you are specifically looking for!! I assumed a kit would be available to convert it, can anyone confirm or even better point me towards one?
Cheers
Brett
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87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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Mar 16, 2012 12:58:14 GMT
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Hi,
Assuming your Mk1 850 has "magic wand" g/box it would be significantly easier to use the gearbox and driveshafts from the original car - otherwise you'll need the rod change from the Metro, plus 2 off p/n 22G420 from Mini Spares (or change to pot joints on the inner end of the driveshafts - I think they are directly swappable) - however, you will then need to consider mounting the rod change, I believe the hole in the tunnel is different and the mounts are a long way different...
As for the clutch you should be able to take the mounting plate off the old Mini engine and transfer it directly to the new clutch housing, however you will have to swap for a Verto hydraulic slave cylinder because your Mini has a 'pre-verto' setup and it makes the pedal feel werid - if it works at all...
I hope that has cleared things up a bit, there is no "kit" that I am aware of because it depends what route you want to go down...!
Cheers,
Simon
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Mar 16, 2012 14:43:36 GMT
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Thanks simon.
my mini knowledge is a very limited unfortunatly.
Plan is to use the gearbox and shafts of dads car, I don't konw what the 'magic wand' thing is but I can tell you its a completely original 1961 car, in Morris flavour. I was going to just swap the lot over, so I could use the oringial driveshafts and running gear etc etc?
Will start the hunt for a Verto slave cylinder.
Cheers for help - a lot of people have said the engine 'wont' go in and I cant believe that given the wealth of mini parts out there.
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Last Edit: Mar 16, 2012 14:44:00 GMT by brettsri
87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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Mar 16, 2012 21:34:55 GMT
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firstly - the people who said "it'll never go in".... don't ask them for any more advice for your mini  Use the gearbox, transfer case, transfer gears, and clutch "wok" cover (along with slave cylinder) from the original engine slap the engine on top of the gearbox - use whichever flywheel looks in better condition. Pre-verto is slightly heavier than the verto - but the verto type has a slight tendancy to "weld" itself to the crank (ie: nearly impossible to remove to change the clutch) You'll also need the 1275 top hose, as it's more "?" shaped, rather than just a right-angle. I would HEAVILY recommend taking the head off, to check the valve seats though - if the head was never converted to run on unleaded (hardened valve seats) then the exhaust valves can wear the head away, sinking into the head itself! (bad running, poor power, etc, etc) You can easily swap to the 1275 engine, including checking the head, in a day. Hell, I've swapped an engine into one of my old minis, only to have to change the damned thing BACK, as the "new" engine was knackered.... in a day |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius! |
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topcat
Part of things
Posts: 289
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Mar 16, 2012 21:54:48 GMT
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My brother has just swapped A+ 1275 from a metro into his '64 Mk.I. You can use the rod change gearbox but you need to make the appropriate hole and a bracket to hold the rod change mechanism. I think its a lot more sympathetic the way you're doing it!
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Mar 18, 2012 21:40:54 GMT
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before fitting the 1275, what are the actual issues with the 850? as it will be an early 3synchro box and magic wand setup you may have issues with the bigger power out of the 1275. Can you tell us what the actual issues are. you will have to remove the mounts of the metro engine as they are different to the mini, plus you will also have to change some of the electrics as the original 850 runs a dynamo setup nothing like the later alternator on the mg metro. as chairchild says take the head off to at least replace the head gasket and check the bores for any damage, unless you saw the actual engine running and drove it? not trying to put you off but ive been mucking about with minis for years and many a cheap engine ive bought has had to be rebuilt  |
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Mar 18, 2012 23:29:51 GMT
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another point that's just jumped to mind, with the issue of more power - brakes WILL need to be updated to disc brakes! Most insurers won't touch you until you do. As for the dynamo/alternator, you can either do the best thing, and swap to an alternator, or just swap the rear bracket over, and fit the dyno to the 1275, and continue to have curse word-all charging ability So I'd say, swap to disc brakes FIRST, and get that all sorted and working. Spend a good day on it, with plenty of cuppas, and give the engine mounting bolts a good spray with penetrating oil - inspect all the bolts you'll need to sort out too, and see if any are going to give you grief BEFORE you start the conversion. This way, you've got a good day to think over how to resolve any problems when you come to them, rather than having to think on the spot and think "oh f### it!"Then, you'll have a whole day, with prepared bolts, and (with any luck) a clear plan on how you're going to do it. Have you got access to an engine crane? |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Mar 19, 2012 13:06:42 GMT
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Many many good points there!! I'd forgotten about the dynamo / alternator saga when I wrote my first response, but the point about using the original transfer case and flywheel and clutch is a good way to save Verto hassle...
Pickmeup has a good point about cheap engines not being quite so cheap so I echo the need to whip the head off and check the bores, but I thought the later engines were all unleaded spec from the factory... I'll go educate myself appropriately
As for the brakes, I heartily agree with Chairchild, are you on single leading shoe drums on the front or twin leading shoes?
I converted from drums to disc and still have the old twin leading shoe drum brake hubs and gear loitering in my garage - its not anything like as good as going to discs but it is an improvement and if you only have a limited budget they will go onto your existing hubs - I'm sure we could come to an arrangement on price and stuff...
Preparation is everything, get the 'new' engine stripped as far as you need it before you take the old one out and render the car immobile - then you'll be able to order everything you didn't realise you needed before you get to that "oh bother" moment halfway through putting it back together on a Sunday afternoon...
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,998
Club RR Member Number: 35
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Mk1 Mini 1275 A+ Conversioncraig1010cc
@craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member 35
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Mar 19, 2012 13:28:24 GMT
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Other thing to kep in mind is that if you use a verto clutch, you will need the verto slave and clutch arm. But the flywheel/clutch assembly from the 850 would fit and you could fit a 1275 non verto clutch on it (i think) to keep it simple.
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Mar 19, 2012 23:22:20 GMT
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AFAIK, all the clutches were the same size So just use what the 850 came with... but possibly get a newer one to replace it! lol |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Mar 21, 2012 20:37:19 GMT
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I hate to take the purist attitude to this but is the car straight and original? would it be a shame to alter it? There's not a lot to stop even a worn 850 running, so I'd be inclined to spend time investigating the existing problems.
If you are going to fit the 1275 I think it's worth preserving the original engine and box so at least you can put it back. I still have several Minis and there have been no shortage of seemingly 'good' scrapyard 1275's that smoke like hell or rattle, eventually turning a cheap upgrade into an expensive one...
If you do go for it I'd use the non-verto clutch as already mentioned as it will work with the current set up and they are cheaper to buy. It might be worth trying to find a gearbox with the early remote change (cast/bolt on selector) as at least when you fit it to the car and cut a hole, it will be right for the tunnel and a gaiter from a Mk2/early Mk3 will make it look tidy. I've fitted engines with the late rod change to earlier cars and it's a bit of a faff modifying the tunnel to accommodate the cotton reel mountings and it can look a bit of a mess.
Good luck with it what ever you decide to do!
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91 Citroen BX Diesel Estate (on the road)
85 Merc 200T Estate
83 Peugeot 205 (on the road)
61 Mini Convertible (on the road)
91 Ford Transit (on the road)
77 Mk1 Transit
60 Rover P4 100 (on the road)
Various Moggies/Minis.
Plus several others...
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Mar 22, 2012 14:39:59 GMT
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Hi All,
I'll try and skim through as much of this but all the advice is hugely appreciated. I think we have worked out a lot of what has been said here, we are doing the conversion in a way that means it can go back to the 850cc.
The 1275 engine I got cheap from a freind. It has known history with low mileage and although it has been out of a car 12 years it looks to be really good. Have checked all the valves etc and it seems like it even should be able to run unleaded hassle free. I didnt mean 'cheap' as in I bought it from a scrappy with no idea on its likley condition. Not my style at all.
Car is totally original although fully restored over the last 3 years. Appreciate the views on keeping it standard but have no interest in that type of classic car ownership myself.
As for whats wrong with the 850, if I'm hoonest we don't know and never bothered to find out. The engine is to slow to make it worth our while. Head Gasket is deffinatly gone, probably wants a new carb too amongst other things. We are keeping it though.
Conversion is being done as sympathetically as possible. I think all we are using is the basic 1275 engine, with everything being used of the 850 - gearbox, clutch and flywheel, dynamo etc. I have an alternator and may convert in the future.
the 850 came out in about 3 hours with fabulous ease, just a week of so to do all the gaskets etc on the 1275 before dropping that in.
Hoped the brakes may cope but its not a problem if they wont. Will the discs fit under the standard wheels? Ie the 10" super skinny ones! Anyone know the most cost effective way to get a kit together?
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87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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Mar 22, 2012 15:28:06 GMT
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meh, gearbox wont fit for some reason. Crank looks bigger on the 1275!
any ideas whats going on there?
Not been able to go and see it yet but will have a look later, try and get some pictures!
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Last Edit: Mar 22, 2012 15:42:56 GMT by brettsri
87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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Mar 22, 2012 20:24:01 GMT
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yes, i take it the crank it hitting the internal webbing of the gearbox? thats because the 850 crank throw isnt as big, if your intent on keeping the original gearbox, take a die grinder to make some room for the crank to rotate,
another problem you'll have (cba to read the text wall above to see if its been mentioned) is fitting the "transfer case" as the idler gear is bigger on a 1275
remote box would be better with a 2.9 diff, and you'll need an ultimate engine steady, and some cooper S brakes to make it stop.
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Mar 22, 2012 23:29:17 GMT
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also, if you don't want to have to rev the tits off the engine for power - put the 850 cam into the 1275. Runs out of puff at about 4500rpm, but gives you a bucketload of torque |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius!
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Mar 28, 2012 10:46:19 GMT
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Hi All,
Thanks again for the advice. Can we keep it simple though please, I don't want to think about brakes, cams or dynamos yet. I have a problem with the gearbox not fitting and if I cant get over that all the other well meant advice is a waste of time as the 850 will be rebuilt and go back in.
My understanding is the metro box wont work on a Mini, linkage and clutch etc.
I also understand the 850 transmission is to small for the 1275 engine.
Can someone tell me if there is a gearbox I can use that will fit straight on? 950cc mini perhaps might be large enough? I really don't want to be modifying any parts if I can avoid it.
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Last Edit: Mar 28, 2012 10:48:01 GMT by brettsri
87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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Mar 29, 2012 12:29:20 GMT
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you have two options: 1) take a die grinder to the existing 850 g/b and make room for the 1275 crank, use 1275 transfer case. (answer from Hardtop) 2) use the 1275 g/b, change output shaft housings (to allow you to keep the hardy spicer couplings you already have), and cut a new hole in the floor to mount the rod change unit. Either way you'll have to modify something, unfortunately it is not a "drop-in fit"... Try Minispares "Calvers Corner" - vast amounts of common sense information, i.e. the following www.minispares.com/Articles.aspx?ty=ad&aid=308Lots of information, all free, fill your boots :-D |
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Mar 29, 2012 13:29:41 GMT
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cheers mate, thats the info I was looking for, just the basic choices I have and I can investigate from there.
The old man will have a fit at modifying any parts in a way that they cant be put back so this may get interesting!
thanks:)
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Last Edit: Mar 29, 2012 13:30:17 GMT by brettsri
87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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Mar 30, 2012 11:58:45 GMT
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no worries, it is very easy to get 'snowblind' with different combinations of everything, its one of the advantages and disadvantages of Mini ownership that there are plenty of different options for pretty much everything!!
If you're keen on maintaining the option of 'putting it back to standard' you might be better off getting another 'magic wand' g/b, and taking the die grinder to that - then you keep the original in its slightly shoddy condition (but original) and can always re-fit it as a unit to return the car to exactly the condition it came from... only trouble is they can be hard to find these days...
I thought of a third option;
Leave the 850 as it is and buy another Mini that is already 'non-original' and modify it from there to your heart's content....
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Mar 30, 2012 19:35:52 GMT
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pic sof oily bits coming up. It seems there is a gap of about 1/8th of an inch that stops the 850 gearbox bolting up to the 1275 block. Identified it as bieng this part that is different... It goes on the crank and links into the idle wheel which transfers the power to the gearbox. The bottom one is from thew 1275, top one from the 850. As you can see, the 1275 one has a larger hole to allow for the thicker crank. The cog teeth are also different so thats why we cant just use the 1275 one.   Am going to see if its possible to take the brass insert out of the 850 one, machine the hole larger and thern fit a 1275 insert inside it and use that. Or try and find one that will fit from a supplier... |
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87 Mk2 Cavalier SRi Turbo
89 Mk3 Cavalier SRi V6
90 Cartlon GSi3000 24v (Lotus Rep)
90 Senator CD 24v
99 Omega 3.0 MV6
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